What if the biggest predictor of whether your sobriety sticks isn’t willpower, but the reason you’re trying in the first place? That’s where this conversation starts, and it changes everything about how you think through the first 30 days.
Brannon Patrick has spent 20 years treating addiction as a therapist, and he brings an unusual angle to the work: his own story doesn’t include drug or alcohol addiction. He was raised without ever touching either, and he’s honest that his own struggles run more toward sugar and short-form video. What he does have is two decades sitting with the hardest, most complex cases, and a genuine love for the twelve-step principles that he’s applied to his own life and family.
Start With the Right Intention
Brannon says the first thing to check before day one is why you’re doing this. “If it’s coming from a place of force and control, and it’s a shame-based sobriety, then you’re just setting up your next relapse,” he explains. Sobriety rooted in “I’m a piece of crap and I better change” might produce a week of white-knuckle abstinence, but it rarely holds. Recovery that lasts comes from wanting a better life, not from punishing yourself into compliance.
Don’t Make Big Decisions in Year One
“It’s typically a bad idea to make a lifelong decision based on a temporary feeling,” Brannon says, pointing out that big emotions are one of the biggest relapse triggers. The first year is a rollercoaster, so the advice is to stabilize, feel the feelings, and hold off on major life changes until the ground feels steadier.
Learn the Five A’s for Cravings
Brannon walked through his framework: become aware of what a craving feels like in your body and mind, accept that it’s happening instead of fighting it, acknowledge it out loud (even a phone call to a sponsor works), assess your real options, and then act. “If you go through all of these and then you don’t do anything… your limbic system’s gonna take over,” he says. The craving passes like a wave if you ride it instead of running from it.
“Your addiction is your frenemy,” Brannon says, and he means it. Instead of treating a craving as the enemy, he suggests thanking it for trying to protect you: it’s often standing in for a real fear, like the discomfort of a hard conversation. Validating that fear, he says, “unburdens the addiction” and makes it easier to choose something different.
“There is a treasure under every trigger.”
Recovery is rarely linear, and the first 30 days will test you in ways that feel disproportionate to the day. But as Brannon and I talked about, no matter how far down the road you go, you’re still the same distance from the ditch, and that’s not a scary thought. It just means the tools are still there when you need them.
Action Items
- Before day one, write down your real reason for getting sober, and check whether it comes from self-punishment or self-respect.
- Build a support system now: a sponsor, a friend, or a 12-step group you can call the moment a craving hits.
- Practice the Five A’s the next time a craving shows up: aware, accept, acknowledge, assess, act.
- Say your craving out loud, even to yourself. It moves the experience from your midbrain to your frontal lobe.
- Hold off on major life decisions (job changes, breakups, moves) for your first year.
- Keep a written list of your reasons for wanting to change, and pull it out when you need reminding.
- Try thanking your craving instead of fighting it. Notice what shifts.
- Consider parts work or IFS-informed therapy once you have some sobriety time under you.
Resources Mentioned
- The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz
- The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer
- Loving What Is by Byron Katie
- Brannon Patrick’s website: https://www.brannonpatrick.com/
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Transcript
Back To Sobriety Basics
[00:00:00] Well, Brandon, thank you so much for joining me today. Yeah, it’s good to be here. We were… Listen, we started to go get on a roll, and I was all, “Hold on.” “I need to, I need to hit record.” Um, but before we dive into the episode, we’re gonna… I just wanna kinda give the promise at the beginning of this episode.
Um, I’m celebrating 10 years of doing the podcast, and I’m really thinking about going back to basics and sort of stripping out, you know, a lot of the dogma around sobriety and recovery, and just focusing on, you know, brass tacks. You know, like first 30 days, how to deal with cravings, uh, how to handle intrusive thoughts or obsessive thinking.
And, uh, you’re, you’re the perfect person to talk to about that, being a professional in your field. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But, um, do you wanna just sort of, uh, give a little overview about… We, the reason I said, “Let’s hit record,” was because I [00:01:00] was, I was like, “Hey, do, do you have addiction?” And you’re like, “Well, not drugs and alcohol, but…”
Yeah. So I was raised a good Mormon boy who didn’t do drugs and alcohol. I, I mean, it was rigid and, um, I just never touched anything. Uh, a- and, and so it, it’s interesting that I’m in this field and I’m treating it and someone might be listening thinking, “What do you know about this if you’ve never, you know, like r- really had your own story of recovery?”
And what I can say is that God somehow led me into, uh, treating it. And as a really young therapist, I started in, working in county-funded programs and, and things and, and I’d ask God like, “Why am I here?” Like, what, uh… And, and I was trying to get out of it. I was trying, trying to do every- everything else and it was like, “No, go back to that program.
Go, go get trained.” And, and, and I started taking on the hardest clients I could find. Like, I, I [00:02:00] liked the hard ones and the, the complex addiction and I’d sit in the groups that were really difficult and, um, and that’s how I got trained. I, I, I treated drug and al- alcohol addiction for years and- Mm … um, I grew to just love it and learn so much about addiction.
And, um, and I’ve, I love the principles of the 12 step and recovery, um, for, for anybody. And so like I was saying to you, yes, I have my addictions. No, no doubt about it. Um, drug and alcohol- What would you say… Listen, I feel like everybody’s addicted to something. Like, and if people don’t think that they are, it’s like, okay, uh, give me your phone.
Yeah. So that’s it, Arlina. Like, I got my, I got my budding, like my, my up and coming addiction of, of shorts on, you know, like watching short form video on- You know? I’ll go out to my hammock at night, you know, and just hang out [00:03:00] and what do you know, like an hour, two hours pass, whatever, and so yeah, I got that, that starting up.
My, my sugar addiction, um, I’m, I’m, uh, I would say I’m sober now for two weeks. Um, so I’ve been like really good with that sobriety for two weeks, right? Yeah. So, so, uh, yeah, I got my- But you know something about cravings. I know stuff about cravings. I know stuff about, about addiction and- I also come from a family with, with a history of it, and I mean, who doesn’t have that?
But I definitely have that in my family, along with other mental illness stuff. So I’ve been, you know, right there with family members who struggle, but, but also clients for 20 years now. So- 20 years. Yeah. So yeah, I, I love recovery. I, I would say I live a life of recovery, um, even if I haven’t been, like, extremely addicted to [00:04:00] alcohol or whatever.
So- Yeah … yeah. So. Yeah, very good. Um, I, I don’t usually play the lightning round, um, with professionals ’cause I like to jump into the solutions. But just for funsies- Mm-hmm … um, are, uh, what, what are some of your favorite books that you recommend to people early in recovery? So I’m a big, uh, there, there’s, like, the self-help, but I’m more almost…
I like the, the t- the type of books that have, they’re philosophical more. Okay. Um, like, I mean, The Four Agreements, I know it’s huge in the 12-step community. That comes up a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it comes up a lot because it, it changed my life. I, I, I love it myself. Just, it, it was, uh, really good for ego deconstruction for me, just kinda understanding why I am the way I am.
But then the other- Mm … the actual agreements in there were just profound, and it was really short and easy to read. And- Yeah … a little weird, little out there, but- I’m good with weird … I [00:05:00] love, I love The Four Agreements, Don Miguel Ruiz. Yeah. Um, I love Michael Singer, The Untethered Soul. Um, I’ll recommend that one.
Again, a little deeper, a little more philosophical. Uh, Byron Katie, Loving What Is, is, is… I, I, I’m a big believer in it, and I love her story of recovery, um, and how she applies the principles that she learns and then teaches them to us. Um- Yeah, her, her, uh, The Work, the four questions. Yeah. Yeah. That is great.
That is, that is fundamentally- It’s life-changing. Uh, yeah . Yeah. I know we throw that word around a lot, but when you’re, when we’re talking about addiction, like, we’re talking about life-saving. It is life-changing. Yes. And there are so many levels that we need to change, right? Like, there’s- Yes … like the on- you know, the layers of the onion, right?
Yeah. There’s just so many layers, so it’s not, it’s [00:06:00] not, um- It’s not hyperbole to say that it’s life-changing. Yeah. She gives you a, a framework to, to, like, change the way that you think so that you can peel those layers back. Yeah. And that’s, that’s why it’s so profound, because you’re just stuck in your same way of thinking, and then that’s- Yeah
leading to all the outcomes in your life, and it’s like- Yeah … wait, I can actually totally… Like, I have power here to create what I want. I just need to- Yeah … figure, figure out how to think different. So. Yeah. I think what was so interesting for me about the work, and by the way, um, if you don’t know what it is, I can leave a PDF in the show notes.
But the work is basically four questions of, like… And now I don’t remember what they are, but it was like- I, I can- … is it true? I can tell you. Yeah. Okay. Go, go, go. Well, m- this isn’t word for word, but first off, is it true? Like- Is it true? So, so if you’re having, if you’re having an issue about something, like you’re [00:07:00] suffering because, like, I’m mad- For someone
because my mom’s mean or whatever. First question you ask is, is it true? Um, the next question you ask is, can you absolutely 100% for sure know that it’s true? And, and what that’s doing is it’s helping you, like, question, like, wait, is this just my perception or is this reality? And Byron Katie does some things that are pretty extreme.
Like, um, like she’ll challenge pe- They’ll, they’ll be like, you know, that I’m mad because, uh, Trump is president or something, and she’ll say, “Is it true?” And, like, you and I are sitting here thinking, yeah, yeah, he is, right? Like, yeah. Now, can you 100% for sure know that Trump is president? Now, think about it.
Like- I have seen it on TV. I… But I don’t 100% know that he- maybe [00:08:00] I’m being fooled. Maybe, maybe that’s not the reality, right? So I don’t 100% know that that is true, right? I- can I push back on that for just a second? ‘Cause I think, um- Uh-huh … there, there will be people be like, “Well, he’s in office, he’s got the whole thing.”
But it, um, a- another way around that might be, well, there’s also people behind the scenes making decisions as well. Like, there’s- That’s that, that too. Yeah … Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, like who’s- So that’s sort of like the- … who’s really president, right? It’s like- Who’s… Or, yeah … And, and- Is it the machine?
Right. But all she’s trying to do is kind of wedge in and, and, and create, like, a possibility of something else, right? Yes. Like- Yeah … So, so it sounds crazy. It’s like, wait. But when she says it’s 100… Now, when, when I say, no, it’s not 100% true, then the next question is, is, um, what, you know, basically what would it be like for you to let go of that thought?
Yeah. Because if that thought is causing you this [00:09:00] suffering, um, then what would it be like for you to let go of that? Well, I don’t know. Yeah. If, if I wasn’t suff- like, if I’m suffering because of that, then I, I’d probably be a lot happier. Okay. Yeah. So then the next question is, is what else could you believe?
Like, what el- what else could you think other than that thing that’s causing you the suffering? Yeah. And so it, it really… The people that don’t like Byron Katie are the ones that don’t like to take accountability for their own life. They like to, they like to stay stuck in a victim stance. Because if, if I can stay angry because that thing happened or you did that to me or whatever it is, I give my power up.
And so then when Byron Katie comes along and says, basically, “You’re 100% capable of shifting the way that you think”- Yeah … then it’s like, “Ooh, I don’t like that ’cause I like to be a victim.” The people who are powerful love it because it’s- Yeah … yes, I can actually… Anyways, I don’t mean to go off on this. Um- No, I, no, I asked.
I mean, I, [00:10:00] I- Uh … you know, when you said they’re the people who don’t like her, and I was like, “What? There’s people that don’t like her?” ‘Cause- People ha- hate Byron Katie’s stuff. Really? Like, they, they, they have a hard time with it. I’d say about a third- Wow … of the people that I’ve seen, like, they, they struggle with it.
You know, I heard- Yeah … Marianne Williamson say there’s only two things that’ll bring up the darkness in someone else, which is, uh, the truth and their own darkness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I get it that, you know, if somebody… Well, it’s confronting and it’s offensive, you know, if that is the thing that kept you safe- Right?
So if, I, I’m always looking at everything through, like, this lens of compassion. So if something, if somebody is holding onto something, it’s because it’s keeping them safe in some way. And- Yes … and the obvious counter to that is they don’t feel safe Right. Like, the need- Right … to feel safe comes from having not been safe.[00:11:00]
So- Right … I, I get the reluctance to letting go of ideas. Like, I, like, probably, like, my worst character defect is self-righteous anger. Mm-hmm. The self-righteousness. It’s like, ’cause that keeps me safe. It keeps me separate. It keeps me feeling like I’m right. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, who wants- Totally
to give that up? Well, and you know what doesn’t help, is when someone comes along and says, “Stop it.” Like, “Get over that.” Like, “That’s not- … that, like, that’s not helping you.” And you’re like- Relax … “Screw you.” Yeah, like rela- relax. Like, it- Calm down. Knock it off. You know? And so- Yeah. The two things- Yeah … that will escalate a situation is calm down and relax.
Yeah. Yeah. So Byron Katie stuff is invalidating in that way. Yeah. And so that’s why people don’t like it, because they- Got it … they’re hanging onto that anger, suffering for a reason. And it doesn’t- Yeah … come and validate the reason. It gives you a solution- Ah … to get out of it. And [00:12:00] so, yeah, the validation and understanding is important.
Um- Yeah. There’s a time and place for validation. This ain’t it. Right. Right. This ain’t it. That’s not Byron Katie. So if you’re not ready to, like, go get to work, then you might not love that book. So. Well, and truth be told, if we’re, if people that are listening are suffering from all the things that, um, that are surrounding addiction, no matter if it’s sugar, alcohol, shopping, porn, love addiction, I’ve, there’s been a lot of love addiction in my, um, periphery lately.
It’s all, it all comes kind of back to the same thing, which was that these things that used to work for us are no longer working, and we’re in pain. Yeah. And so the idea here is that we’re holding on to some sort of limiting belief. And a belief, a limiting belief is really just either incorrect information or missing information.
Mm-hmm. And I like to focus on the missing information, because [00:13:00] once we have… Missing information is like perspective. Once we have a d- and that’s what you’re talking about with Byron Katie, is, like, hey, there’s just another pers- another way of looking at this. Yes. And you get to, the power is y- we get to choose.
Yes. Oh, I love, I love what you’re saying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We get to choose. So that’s- Right … and truth be told, like, uh, when I showed up in recovery, I was super, I had this super victim mentality. And when it was explained to me, like you said, about, like, when I give my power away, like, I’m giving my power away if I choose to maintain that victim mentality, and there was something really rebellious in me that I was like, “Absolutely not.”
Ah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. That rebelliousness in you made you take your power back, that, like- It did, yeah. Yes. It kind of popped the bubble of victim. And, and, and I’m not s- I’m not saying that experiences of- um, victimization aren’t real. Right. Um, so we’re not invalidating that. We’re just saying there [00:14:00] are realms where our limiting beliefs, like, we’re, it’s, um, self-inflicted wounds.
Right, right, exactly. Yeah. But I like what you’re saying, like, if we come, if we come at the person with, “That’s incorrect and you should change it,” that doesn’t really help them. Yeah, “You’re wrong.” Um- Yeah, that creates a lot of resistance … yeah, it’s like, “Knock it… Just stop it. Knock it off.” So, yeah. Yeah, just stop it.
Yeah. Just say no. Yeah. Just say no. Just say no, don’t do that. Yeah. That’s bad. Yeah. Worst campaign ever. I know. Um, so you, uh, help people with, you know, recovery and stuff like that. Uh, do you… A- and I would imagine creating some sort of self-care routine is important. Do you have one yourself, like a morning practice or anything?
Uh-huh. Yeah. So we ca- I call it, in our program, we call it, call it the daily charge. Ooh. And yeah, with mine, it’s really simple. Um, [00:15:00] I try to get up, uh, b- two hours before I go to work. Um, and I get out of bed and I go to my backyard. So my backyard is, has a view of the mountains and right where the sun ri- You’re in Utah?
Yeah, right where the sun rises and- Beautiful … um, during this time of year, I really like the, the ground on my feet, so just the grass. Um, so a lot of times I’ll be barefoot in my backyard and just breathe in a little bit, some breathwork, but not, nothing major. It’s just short. It’s quick. I’m outside, and I’m aware that the day is starting.
So that’s something that I do. Um, I try to exercise. I’m trying to be more consistent with it. Um, I’ve had some health stuff lately that’s got me off my routine, but, uh, three times a week I’ll try to lift, and other than that, I just try to get out in nature. Mm. [00:16:00] So that’s just some of my self-care that I do.
Another thing that I love to do with my self-care is to just- Um, hug my dog and, and hang out with my pets. Like, they are self-care to me. My cat is the coolest. Like, he’s so- … so chill and cool and, and, uh… My cat and my two dogs are, like, best friends. They love each other. Oh my god. And- So cute … so I just, just hanging with their energy is really good for me because I’m with humans all day.
Mm-hmm. And so I just love being with my pets. So that, that’s some of the things I do. I love it. Yeah. Do you have a spiritual practice in the morning? Um, the… I would say my spiritual practice is, is what happens out in my yard. Out in nature. Um- Yeah … I’m alone. It’s breathwork. I pray out there. Mm-hmm. Um, and but I, I really, coming out of my religion the way I have, um, I’m figuring that out, like, day to day.
Okay. [00:17:00] And, um, what God is to me. And so it’s, it’s been really just really… I’m in a place right now of openness. Okay. Um, so I try not to pray in a regimented way- Mm-hmm … and all of the old ways that I’ve ever done things. And it, it’s a, it’s a work in progress, and I’m finding some really cool things that I love.
And yeah. Um, I really appreciate that. Um, I didn’t really plan to go here, but, uh, s- I had a lot of religious trauma when I was growing up, and I left the church. Me and God broke up. I think I told that to you on your podcast. Yeah, I love the way you talked about that. It was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, coming back, so recovery actually con- uh, talk about confronting, like, I had to sort of redefine everything.
Yeah. Yeah. And so are you sort of going through a process of redefining what’s real for you or what God means to you? Yeah, I, I have been for, uh, for a while now. And really, [00:18:00] I feel like, uh, where I’m at in the process now is really settling into this space of embracing some uncertainty and sitting in that and being okay with it.
Yeah. Um, and so almost not defining everything is, is where- Oh … I’m landing. And- Okay … it’s so paradoxical to me because the more I sit in that space, the more I, I know God and feel close to God. And so- It’s in the present moment. Yeah, it’s in that presence. It’s not putting constructs all around it. Um, I’ve connected to divine feminine, to masculine energy, to…
So, so there’s… I could really, really go down a rabbit hole here, but there’s a, there’s a lot of things that I’m, I’m feeling and finding, um, now that, that weren’t available to me when God was a god of shame, and God was a god of control and those type of things, so. Yeah. [00:19:00] No, I love that. I, I grew up with that, like, the s- the shame and the control and the punishing and…
That… You, you talked about that ripping the paper thing. Like, that was so- Oh … so profound to me because it’s just like, yes, and that’s the culture- That’s such a visceral experience, right? Oh, yeah, and it’s the culture I live in and was raised in, so much that, of like, it… Like, all these people around me are worshiping this God that, like- that makes them feel horrible about themselves.
And I’m like, “Hang on here.” Like, “What are you doing?” What, what are- Yeah. Yeah. Why? What are we doing here? Yeah. That wasn’t, that wasn’t… What, what happened to the joy deep down in my heart song? Yeah, and, like, unconditional love. Like, what about that, you know? Yeah. What happened to that? And, and actual grace and all that good stuff.
Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we should be talking about that. Uh, for those who don’t know about the ripping the paper in half, I, I’ve told this story before, but if you’re just listening. Um, so I had a, uh, I went to 12 [00:20:00] step and saw the words God on these, you know, lists and things, steps. There was, like, God all over it.
And I pulled this girl aside and I was like, “If this is what this is, I’m not gonna be able to do it.” And she’s like, “Oh, it’s not a thing.” And she just handed me a, um, piece of binder paper and was like, “On one side, write down all… Like, just for funsies, what would God be if you wanted, you know, whatever God to be?”
So I wrote down loving, compassionate, uh, I’m the favorite. That’s all. I always have to include that. Yeah. Um, and then on the other side, you know, it was like all-knowing, all-powerful, master organizer. There’s something about organizing that I really like. Um, and, uh, the other side was, like, judging, shaming, condemning, like, all that stuff.
And sh- when, when I was done, she said, “Well, let me see your paper,” and I handed it to her and she tore it in half. I love it. And she gave me the good side and she’s like, “We’re just gonna start here.” And I was like, “That’s it?” And she’s like, “That’s it. It’s not a thing.” Like- I love it. Yeah. [00:21:00] I think so many people get tripped up, you know, on, on that, so.
But you, you said something, too, that she said y- this side of it, this side she ripped off is, like, what, what o- other people have given to you. Yeah. It was, right? Like- Yeah … yeah. If you have a problem with God, you probably have a problem with somebody else’s god. Yeah. She’s like, “You need to find your own.”
Yes. I was like, “Okay.” I love that. I- That, like, gives me chills when you say that. Yeah. ‘Cause it’s so true. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Yeah, man, she was a, she was amazing. Um- Yeah, I wrote all about her in my book, and I don’t, I don’t know, like, I- there was- it’s so, it’s so funny. I, I was gonna go into 12-step stuff, but there are people…
And I guess you- anywhere you go, there’s two kinds of trainers or coaches. There’s, like, the hard-ass, you know- Mm-hmm … F your feelings, David Goggins-style- Yeah … coach. Yeah. Really hardcore. And then there’s the loving, compassionate, [00:22:00] um, just open-handed, open-hearted, like- Mm-hmm … where are you at today? Like, and, and I, I gravitated, I do love both to be perfectly honest- Mm-hmm
but I really gravitated- Mm-hmm … early in recovery to the gentle, compassionate, sort of motherly, warm, nurturing people- Mm-hmm … because I was so hard on myself that I didn’t need any more of that. Yeah. Isn’t it interesting? Like, we, we need different things at different times and- Yeah … and according to our past trauma too, will, will influence, like, what you’re able to, to take in and- Yeah
be influenced by. Um- Yeah … because I know as a therapist I’ve actually played both those roles. And- Have you? … I, I’ll swing back and forth a little bit and I- people will tell me they’re scared of me, and then people will tell me that I’m the most, like, empathetic person they’ve ever talked to and I’m like, “Okay, well then w- I might be doing a good job because I’m somewhere in the middle I guess.”
I don’t know. Ah. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, honesty can be really scary to [00:23:00] people. Yeah. Yeah, uh, it can be scary to people. And with addiction especially, when there’s so much denial early on- Yeah … um, so many of those, like, just the, the thinking that’s not working- Yeah … the stinkin’ thinkin’ or whatever. Yeah. Um, I, I’ve seen, I’ve seen therapists and mentors and sponsors just play that role of, like, “I’m gonna set you straight.”
Um, and I think that’s good. Um, but just that isn’t good, um, because- Yeah … because then you’re just f- like, driving home the very, like, uh, like, root of the issue, which is like, “Let me continue to tell you how broken you are, how- Right … wrong you are, how you need to change, how…” And there needs to be that kinda increase of love there too, that, like, compassion there as well, I believe.
Compassion’s huge. Yeah. Yeah, compassion is huge. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I’ve seen, you [00:24:00] know, I’ve heard stories of, like, a sponsor, you know, calling your sponsor and, you know, bitching and complaining about somebody or something, and they’re like, “Well, did you do what I told you to do? Did you…” You know, and they say, “No,” and the sponsor just hangs up.
Yeah. And I’m like, “Oh.” Yeah, I’ve heard those stories too. Yeah. That is so hardcore. Yeah. But it worked for that person. I, I just didn’t do well with that, ’cause I had already had- Right … so much hardcore in my life. I needed something softer, so, um, but I do love… I mentioned David Goggins, like, uh, um- You know, his whole thing is you know exactly what to do.
Yeah. Like, you know, you know, don’t listen to your mind. Your mind is lying to you. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I listen to him when I work out, but, you know. It does… Isn’t that motivating? I do that, too. Do you really? Yes. Well, ’cause it’s like, yeah, it’s like what would Goggins do? And it’s like, I’ll get, I’ll get another mile in.
Let’s do this. I literally have a shirt that says, “What would Goggins do?” [00:25:00] That’s funny. That’s funny. Um, well, listen, I wanna deliver on the promise of back to basics, where we, I wanna talk about, um, you know, what can people, uh, how do people prepare, like if someone’s ju- listening, is thinking about taking a break from alcohol, or they, maybe they relapsed and they need to think about the next 30 days, um, what are some of the things that come up?
Uh, I, I mean, you’ve been doing this for 20 years, like professionally. Uh-huh. Uh, for the first 30 days for somebody who’s either wanting to take a break or kinda coming back from a re- relapse, what’s important to know in that first 30 days? Yeah, the, really, I think the thing you need to start with is, is the right intention and the right energy behind it.
So if it’s coming from a place of force and control, and it’s a shame-based sobriety, then you’re just setting up your next relapse. Um, [00:26:00] so you, you really gotta check that out first, of like why, what’s my motivation here? Mm-hmm. And if my motivation is that I love myself and I want, I want better outcomes in my life, and, um, I, I wanna move forward and feel, uh, you know, s- some success and things like that, that’s awesome.
That’s great. Um, if it’s I’m a piece of crap and I better change, then you’re just still in your addiction, and you might get some white-knuckle sobriety for a week, and you’ll probably end up relapsing. So that’s the first thing to look at. The, the second thing- But what if somebody, what if somebody genuinely feels like a piece of crap?
Well, I think that’s, I think that leads to something in the first 30 days that you need, is you need some support- Mm-hmm … and some other voices around you rather than that voice in your own head. Um, you’re not gonna do this on your own, and it’s not just because you need the support for the accountability and the structure around the [00:27:00] sobriety.
You also need the support so that you have another voice saying, “You know what? Like, yeah, you just relapsed, and you feel like you’re horrible. And of course you feel that way, and I’ve been there before. Um, but you know what? Like, you’re here today, and let’s, let’s take this 24 hours and let’s start moving forward, because you are loved and you’re okay.”
So you need that support, um, whether it’s a friend, a sponsor, a 12-step group, um, that support around you that can counteract those shame-based, um, just hopeless feelings. Yeah. Um, so you, you need that. So once, once you start, like, actually hearing those messages and believing them, you have that self-determination.
You’re motivated because you want, you want better in your life. Then, like, w- we’re just getting started now, right? So, so then you gotta take a look at [00:28:00] step one, “I’m powerless over my addiction,” and, um, and we, we won’t get into the, all of that. I think we might have talked about that as one of the big misconceptions, but we won’t get into all of that.
Right. But the reality is, is if, if you actually start to look at step one and live your life as if step one is, is real, then you’re gonna be honest with yourself about just certain situations that you put yourself in, um, certain inputs that you have in your life- Right … that- Yeah … um, so it’s, it’s prevention work, but that work is probably the most important for your sobriety.
Oh. Um, if you’re… Like, I, I was w- I’m so sorry. I was w- I have to interrupt you. Oh. This, this, this, do you hear the dog? Yeah, you’re fine. Oh, You’re fine. Yeah.
Sorry. Dog- Oh, that was, that was quick … dog tosses me around all the time. That [00:29:00] was quick. Um, what was I saying? Oh, step one, right? Yeah. Like, just- You, you start setting your life up for success with that sobriety. So I, I had a, I had a client I was working with that, that worked at a bar, and he really wanted sobriety, but he didn’t wanna quit his job, and it proved that he really didn’t want sobriety because he didn’t quit his job.
Mm. Um, and, and the reality of every weekend he was there at the bar, like, it just was like it couldn’t… It just, sobriety didn’t happen. Um- Yeah … so. That’s really hard. Um, so to actually set your life up for success i- in sobriety. And already, Arlina, some of the hard work starts happening ’cause you start realizing, like, “Wait, I can’t hang out with that one friend, and I like things about that friend,” you know?
Yeah. Or that one party [00:30:00] that they planned that, like, I’d really love to go, but I know I, I ca- I… If I wanna be sober, I shouldn’t go to that, right? And this is where you start to really realize how serious you are about sobriety. Um, that is a interesting point because that happens to a lot of people early in recovery.
It’s like, “Can I keep my friends?” Yeah, yeah. Like, can I keep my friends? Can I keep my job? You know, can I keep my spouse or partner? Like, these are really big questions that come up early on. Um, would it be fair to say that, you know, there’s this idea of not making major changes in your first year? Um- Yeah.
Oh, yeah. So, so what do you mean by that? Like, major life changes? Yeah, like, I guess it just, it really just depends on the situation, right? Mm-hmm. But they often say, you know, you know, don’t, uh, refrain from making major life decisions your [00:31:00] first year because we’re so emotional that first year. It feels like such a rollercoaster, and it’s typically a, a bad idea to make a lifelong decision based on a temporary feeling.
You know, it’s funny. My wife and I are… I say I’m sober from sugar for two weeks. I’ve been on this crazy cleanse with my wife, and I’m eating beets and kale all day, and it’s- Ugh … it’s, like, awful. Um- So dirt. You’re eating dirt? Yeah, it’s just straight up… It’s, it’s… I got one more week. But- … what’s interesting is, like, my wife and I’s emotions are very raw.
Yeah. And, and so, like, yesterday there was some stuff, and it just, it just, like, quickly brings up stuff, you know? And it’s like right now her and I just need to be focused on getting through some of these withdrawal symptoms that we’re having and- Yeah … and, uh, w- like, yesterday with all the emotions being so raw, it’s not like we should make major decisions about life, [00:32:00] you know?
Yeah. Like, we’re just powering through. Um, right now and feeling all the feels. Mm-hmm. And so you’re absolutely right. Like, a- another thing too, Arlina, is Um, what triggers relapse, big emotions do. Like, that’s one… Those are some of the biggest triggers, right? Yeah. So big life changes trigger big emotions, and that triggers relapse.
So as much as possible, just try to stabilize out, chill, don’t have to make big decisions, um, and feel the feels. Like yeah, focus on that. Yeah. Feeling the feelings I think is a, is a really big one. Realizing that they’re not gonna kill you. They’re not gonna last forever. Sit in them. Ride them like a wave.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Leaning in. And I- uh, you mentioned, um, The Untethered Soul in the beginning. I think that’s a great resource- Mm-hmm … for making friends with your feelings. [00:33:00] Yes. Like, The Untethered Soul about meditation and sitting with what is. And I feel like in the first 30 days, like, you know, one day at a time is sort of about being in the present moment.
It’s like we’re not solving all of our problems today. Like, when we’re vulnerable, when we’re raw, like, now is not the time. It’s about being gentle and, and I love The Untethered Soul ’cause it talks about how to meditate and make friends with your feelings. It’s such a great tool for recovery because, like, a person struggling with addiction who’s starting to get in recovery, when they can become an observer of, of things, um, it’s…
it… Like, something about that disconnects you from being- Mm-hmm … in the process. So like, when a craving comes, and you bounce out of it, and you look at, at what’s happening, it’s like, “Oh, wow, I’m really triggered right now. Where’s that coming from?” [00:34:00] Yeah. “Why is that happening? Huh, that’s interesting. I’m curious with myself.”
Such a good relapse prevention tool because- Yeah … now you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re creating space between stimulus and response and just watching. Um, and so The Untethered Soul, kind of on a deeper level, talks about w- how to do that and what that is. Yeah. Not, not necessarily in an addiction recovery sense, but it’s that same skill.
Yeah. Well, it’s, it’s so interesting because addiction really isn’t the problem. The… What the real… Like, that’s the symptom of the problem. Yes. And, and I love getting to, like, root cause, and really root cause is an ability to feel our feelings or, um, that we’ve misidentified… We’ve identified with our feelings, meaning like, uh, if I make a mistake, and I get humiliated, embarrassed, it’s because I’ve decided [00:35:00] that it’s part of my identity.
Like, I sc- you know what I mean? It’s I’m identifying- Yes … with a feeling. Yes. Like it’s me. Yes. Like there… I must be ba- Like, I personalize it for some reason. It must mean that I’m bad. Well, and that’s what we really wanna go numb, is, is when we, when we feel that to that level, we w- we wanna numb it. And- Yeah
so when you realize, and I liked what you said earlier about, like, basically it’s not a broken thought that you feel that, but maybe it’s incomplete. And so- Yeah … like, if, if you’re feeling like, “Well, my spouse looked at me the wrong way, so therefore, like, screw them, I’m going to relapse,” well, it might be okay that y- if we dig, if we pull the layers back a little bit to this, um, on the surface level, it’s just, “I’m frustrated because they gave me that look, and I don’t like that.”
You pull it back a little bit and it’s like, “Why is that look so hard for you [00:36:00] to handle?” “Well, I don’t like when people are disappointed in me.” “Why don’t you like when people are disappointed in you?” “Well, because my mom, I was her favorite, and I always had to be perfect for her, and I never wanted to let her down.”
Um- There it is … okay. Yeah, you’re starting to see the identity now that was formed, right? Yeah. But, but it’s an incomplete identity because the truth is, is you and your worth aren’t, like, dev- uh, uh, have actually nothing to do with your mom. Your mom doesn’t give you that. Um- And we also don’t know what Mom was going through at the moment
and why she, she set that whole system up with you, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so the, the, the real relapse prevention work here, it’s, we’re starting to get into, like, trauma work here, but the real relapse prevention work here is when wife gives me a [00:37:00] bad look, I can actually handle it because that little inner child inside of me, that exile part inside of me isn’t- Mm-hmm
screaming out, “I can’t handle this.” It’s actually saying, “It’s okay. I can handle it.” Um- Yeah … actually what I’m gonna do is, is move toward her feelings when she gives me that look instead of run away and go relapse. Yeah. Um, so- Yeah, like it’s interesting because there’s the… When we talk about first thir- 30 days of sobriety, Arlina, it’s like what I’m, what I’m describing right now usually doesn’t happen.
Honestly- Yeah … it oftentimes is just sheer will and like I’m gonna white-knuckle this, get through my withdrawals. I’m gonna sit in the discomfort. Because, like, you’re not in a mental state to go do some of this deeper trauma work at that point. Yeah. And we just gotta get some sobriety, like gotta get through withdrawal symptoms first [00:38:00] and foremost.
Gotta make sure you’re safe. Um- Yeah … that first, and then we start to peel the layers back, and we start to do this deeper work, uh, for the long-term r- recovery- Yeah … and sobriety. Um, do you find that it just sort of depends on the person? I’ve heard some people say they, like, they get into trauma work right away.
Other people say they needed to stabilize a little bit and, and just let their nervous system reset before they ventured into, uh, trauma work. Would you say it just kinda depends on where people are at? Uh, so I’ve totally fil- like, flipped my philosophy on this. I was, I was trained in a way where we didn’t get into trauma work almost for a year- Okay
before, yeah, which is a long time. It was all relapse prevention. It was all sobriety, just, um, and, and stabilization. Um- And where I’m at now is I, I won’t go do trauma work if somebody’s actively [00:39:00] using. Oh, no. No. Um, because, yeah, it doesn’t do much good and, um, but as soon as some sobriety comes, then I’ll, I’ll, I’ll do certain types of trauma work.
Um, like for example, parts work- Oh, yeah … is a way, yeah, it’s a way to, to like not go to the depths, like, a- and, and you almost start to learn how to navigate trauma work by doing parts work. Yeah. And so I’ll do that if we’re, if you’re, uh, two weeks in so- sober, a week in, like, let’s start, let’s start there.
Let’s do it. Um, and depending on how that goes, then we’ll just keep moving. We’ll keep going to that root if, if, if it’s available to go there. So, um, I’m also not scared to trigger people, like w- with doing the trauma work. The, part of recovery is learning how to handle those triggers, so to equip them with the tools to handle them, [00:40:00] but then like the triggers are gonna come when we do this trauma work, and then we, we work through that.
We plan on that. It’s actually a great learning tool in the process. Yeah. So we’re not gonna avoid triggers for a year before we… Yeah, you know? So- No. Yeah. Because life, life is, uh, not like that. No. Yeah, exactly. Life is not like that. It’s so funny because, uh, like and some people don’t like going to 12 step because, you know, they get triggered.
But my feeling is that there is a treasure under every trigger. Absolutely. Like, you h- you actually, like your feelings have to come up so that you can learn to process them to resolution. Right. Right? Right. A- a- and so it’s, it’s a, you’re re- you’re reprocessing, so these are actually opportunities to…
Because what happens w- to a lot of people, I’m sure you see this all the time, you know, people dissociate. They get triggered, they dissociate, and then they can’t feel their feelings, but you have to feel it- Yeah … to heal it kind of a thing. Yep. [00:41:00] And so a trigger is an opport- like, it triggers those feelings.
And so to me, it’s like, that’s an opportunity. You gotta pounce on it when it comes up. Like, never waste a good crisis, right? Absolutely. Although, it sounds like we’re speaking out of both sides of our mouth ’cause I’m saying- I know … step, step one, remove all the triggers. And yet we’re saying a trigger’s a good thing.
And, and both are true. Like, do what you can to like- Remove the obvious triggers and don’t be afraid to step in, especially some of these emotional triggers you gotta feel to heal. Yeah. You gotta start stepping into those ones. But you don’t have to go step into the, the beer aisle at the grocery store, right?
So- Yeah … both are true. I mean, listen, there’s some things, like we’re not saying you should actively go seek these out, but it’s gonna happen. It’s gonna happen. Yes. So that’s why no major decisions the first year, you know, but that, that’s a, that’s an action. That’s- Yeah … that’s like a [00:42:00] self-led action, so you don’t have to do that.
I think that’s why it’s so important to have support during, ’cause it’s so messy and it’s so nuanced. ‘Cause you’re right, it is a paradox. We are talking out the both sides of our mouth in a sense, but… Well, like as a therapist I will say let’s, let’s plug all the holes, let’s make sure, you know, your life is clear of triggers.
So sit down in this therapy session now and I’ll trigger you for an hour. And it And, and, and it’s a both/and. And it’s… Yeah, with boundaries. It’s a both/and. Yeah. Yeah. It’s with boundaries, with, with a plan. We’re walking you through that, right? Yeah. So that’s, that’s how you start to develop the skills. Yeah.
You’re actually helping s- supporting someone process to resolution rather than to deny, dissociate, or come to a negative conclusion about themself. Exactly. Yeah. That’s well put. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Those are all really important. We were gonna talk a little bit about [00:43:00] cravings and maybe intrusive thoughts. Um, what is your advice on helping somebody deal with cravings?
Um, well, it depends on kinda where you’re at in the stage of it. So early on, cravings are more intense. There’s, there’s no way around that. And, um, so this is where, like, depending on how, like, how bad the addiction is, you’re gonna need different things to deal with those cravings. So on one hand, uh, something as simple as a phone call can be massive for cravings.
Yes. Um, and on the other hand, and something as important as detox can be, can be dealt with with cravings. You’re locked away. And so you can’t… right? Yeah. So, but the, the thing that, that is important, I, I, I have a tool for cravings to think about. [00:44:00] So, um, I call it my five As. So, um, and, uh, different people have different ways of, of teaching this.
But you wanna become aware of it. So what happens in your body? What type of thoughts do you have? What are the common thoughts that you have when you have a craving? Um, so as aware as you possibly can be. Um, thoughts, feelings, um, behaviors. Wow. Wow, when I do that thing, I’m definitely having a craving.
When I have that type of thought, there’s a craving. So you wanna become aware of it. You want to, um, accept it. So instead of fight against it, you wanna actually accept it. So don’t, don’t say, “Oh, I shouldn’t have a craving.” Well, you do. So to stop and be like, “I accept that I have a craving. It’s there.” Right?
It’s happening. Yeah. It’s happening. Um, then you wanna acknowledge it, and this might sound a little bit [00:45:00] weird, but I would suggest that you say it out loud So- Say what? You say, “I’m having a craving.” Okay. You say, you say, “I’m triggered right now by that. I’m triggered by- Yeah … like, that, uh, bar over there at the wedding.
Like, I’m triggered by that.” Okay. Um, or dig down even further, “I’m triggered that I have to talk to my mom at this wedding, and there’s a bar over there,” right? Like There it is. Right? Yeah. So like- Yeah … get down to acknowledging what it is. I’m triggered by that. Um, and the reason I say say it out loud, and this is why phone calls work, um, you can say it out loud to yourself.
It’s better to make a phone call to a sponsor or who- whomever and say, “I’m at a wedding, and I’m triggered because I have to talk to my mom, and there’s a, there’s an open bar here.” Um, when you say it out loud, you move it from your m- mid brain to your [00:46:00] frontal lobe, and that, that gives, starts to give you power over the craving.
Mm. Um, so notice all of these things are about sitting in it. They’re, they’re not about running from or pretending like it’s not there. It’s I’m, I’m accepting it. I’m acknowledging it. I’m sitting in it. And then I’m g- I’m, I’m starting to pull out tools to use, relapse prevention tools like support, making phone calls, and I could go on and on about the different tools.
But, uh, when I have this craving, I’ll start to use these different things to deal with it. Now, sometimes the craving will come and go like a wave- Yeah … and you can ride that wave. Um, and, uh, a- and, and, and the, it’s sometimes bigger than, than other times. And so you might have to, like, dig deep down into your toolbox of like, “Okay, I gotta do this one, and this one might feel [00:47:00] extreme, but I gotta do this one because this is intense.”
Um, so but once you acknowledge it, then you start saying, “Okay, what are my tools?” Like, here’s… I’m gonna, I’m gonna start with this simple one. I’m gonna breathe for, for three minutes. I’m gonna focus on my breath. I’m gonna step out of the wedding for a minute. I’m gonna just be by myself in my car and go breathe for a minute, okay?
Great. Awesome. That’s a good tool. Um, if maybe craving subsided, maybe it didn’t. You know what? I’m gonna go make a phone call. Or I’m gonna go for a 10-minute walk around the block. Um, I’m gonna go pray. Uh, all these things are just the things that you’re thrown in the middle between the craving and the, and the relapse.
So- Right … I’m, I’m gonna do these things to just ride this wave and let it subside and, and it will. If you ride the wave, it will eventually go away. Um- Yeah … [00:48:00] so- That was, that was- Yeah … three A’s: aware, accept, acknowledge. I got two more. Okay. So the next is to assess the situation. Assess. And that’s to, to, to ask yourself, “What are my options here?”
Okay. “I could…” And, and throw the option of relapsing in there. Okay? Yeah, that’s important. “I could…” Yeah. “I could go drink, um, but let me assess that. What would that do for me? Well, let me play the tape forward a little bit.” Okay, I’m assessing that. Like, “That wouldn’t really be good for my life right now. I don’t…
I, I’m, I… You know, I don’t want that.” Okay. “What else could I do? Well, I could go to my car and breathe.” Okay. Um, “I could go talk to my brother and avoid my mom,” you know? So, so you’re just assessing all the different things you could do- Okay … uh, because you’re having this… And then the, the, the next one is to act, is to actually- Act
do. So if you go through all of these and then you don’t do anything, [00:49:00] the… and you just sit in the like, “Okay, I’m right next to this bar and Mom’s coming toward me,” your, your limbic system’s gonna take over and the relapse is gonna happen. Right. And so you need to move. You need to, like, do a something, whatever that something is.
Um, and like I said, it can be really simple, um, or it can be bigger. Yeah, like some- Yeah. Like some of the- Um- … tools you mentioned, yeah. Yeah. So, and, and, and sometimes this is a quick, fleeting thing that’s simple. Like, “Oh, interesting, there’s a craving. Well, that wasn’t very strong, and I’m-” I’m gonna breathe for a second and I’m good, right?
And then sometimes this is a big craving. This is a big deal, so it’s like, “Okay, I’m- I’m leaving the wedding and I’m gonna go- Mm-hmm … straight to a meeting right now.” Um, great. Do that. That’s… Y- you’re dealing with a craving in a healthy way by doing that. [00:50:00] Um, so yeah, that’s, uh, in a nutshell. Now, there’s a lot of different tools and things you can work into that, but in a nutshell, that’s how- Yeah
you deal with a craving. And- No, that’s really good. Yeah. I- I think, um, uh, uh, in the past, like w- working with clients, I… Very early on I’ll typically say, “Let’s write down all the reasons,” like when the pain is up and they’re like really motivated to change, I’ll say, “What are all your reasons for wanting to change?”
And it typically is around, um, painful experiences. Yeah. You know, like, oh, spending too much money, weight gain, um, fights with family and children, or you know, the shame of- of it all, of how I behave. And so I’ll say, “Keep that list on you,” and so, you know, maybe during the act is like, you know, pull out that list and remind yourself why you started.
Yeah, yeah. And I would add in, uh, with [00:51:00] that, like remind yourself why you started and what you’re doing, but also handle yourself with compassion of- Yes … and- and- and handle… This is gonna sound weird, but handle your- your craving with gratitude, and like have- have gratitude for it. And- and what I mean is like here’s this craving.
Why is that craving there? It’s because it’s there to… It’s, it’s trying to help you survive. It’s, it’s- Good one … which is, which is interesting because you’re like, “Well, how does craving my addiction help me survive?” Well, something inside of you is saying, “It’s really uncomfortable to talk to mom. Like, I don’t…”
Right, right? “I don’t wanna do that. I, I wanna… Like, I… That’s, that’s not good for my survival to talk to mom.” Yeah. “So I wanna go drink to avoid that.” Well, thank you, addiction, for stepping up for me, for, for trying to help me in this [00:52:00] situation. Yeah. I appreciate that. Thank you. So when you handle it with gratitude, you validate the, the, the pain point that it’s trying to solve.
Right. And when you validate that pain point that it’s trying to solve, it unburdens the addiction. It’s like, the addiction’s like, “Oh, okay, you see what I’m trying to do. Like, thank you.” Um, and then, and then you can be like, “You know what? I’m gonna choose to, like, go in a different direction here, but thank you.”
And so it’s… it feels backwards, but it works. So am, am I making any sense, Arlina, with this? Is this, like- Well, listen … sound crazy? I, I’m an IFS… Yeah, I do IFS with my clients, so it all makes sense to me. Yeah. But it’s like, what you resist persists, right? Yeah. If you’re going to resist the part of you that’s trying to save you, um, you know, that’s…
it’s gonna persist. But- Right … it’s just like [00:53:00] any… You know, if we, if we think about how we deescalate, um, an argument, let’s say, the best way to deescalate an argument is to really listen for the feeling And to validate that feeling by saying, “I could see how you’d feel that way.” Yeah. You’re not agreeing with it.
You’re not abandoning yourself. You’re not saying you’re wrong. It’s just an acknowledgement of, “Oh, I could see how you’d feel that way.” When, the reason people yell in arguments is ’cause they don’t feel like they’re being heard. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so when you actually are hearing somebody, that, well, they, it takes the wind out of their sails.
Same thing with your addiction. Same thing. It’s, and it’s such a good tool to deal with cravings. It’s like, oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I, I, I will validate you, addiction, for why you’re here. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, ’cause ultimately the, uh, I, I always say that the purpose of addiction is distraction. It’s trying to [00:54:00] distract you from, from the pain that you don’t know how to process to resolution.
Exactly. A- and so when you look at it that way, it’s like, oh, all right, now I get it, and now I get- I think- … that it’s trying to help me … your addiction is your frenemy, and we, we, we- Your frenemy … don’t, we don’t focus on the friend part of that very much. It’s just, it’s just the enemy. All right? It’s- Yeah
and yeah. So… That’s really good. Yeah. I almost feel like these are, you know, those five A’s can almost, well, be used, ’cause we were talking about addressing intrusive thoughts or obsessive thinking. You know, it’s, it’s almost like the labeling, naming, saying thank you in your mind. Yeah. Like, those are all sort of the same.
The same, yeah. Yeah, ’cause I feel like- It’s the same … uh, I feel like intrusive thoughts is really interesting because I feel like that’s also a par- you know, in IFS terms, that’s also a part. Right. Right. It’s distraction. [00:55:00] But yeah. And even that word intrusive, uh, there’s a negative connotation to it. Well, I mean- But-
yeah, ’cause it feels painful. It’s like, I don’t want this thought. Yeah, yeah. But I wonder if we could reword that almost to, like- I don’t know. Something not negative, you know? ‘Cause to, to me, I’ve g- I’m going so far in the direction, Arlina, of just pure acceptance of what is. Yeah. It’s just like, a- and just like what you said, what we resist persists.
So- Yeah … so, like, it, it just is. And so, wow, I’m, I’m ruminating or having these intrusive thoughts or these cravings or, um, how about I’m just having thoughts, and so what do I wanna do with them now, right? Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. The, uh, there’s, um, this idea in, in a lot of, you know, peer support programs and things, this idea of obsessing about the alcohol.[00:56:00]
You know, people are like, it becomes the center of their world. They, you know, people, like, maybe start the morning going, you know, hungover, being like, “I’m, I’m not doing that again.” And then th- by the middle of the day they start feeling better, and by the end of the day, it’s like all they can think about is having a glass of wine by the time they get home.
Yeah. You know? Yeah. The obsessive thinking. Which I would call, uh, intrusive or obsessive thinking. I know, I’m just saying. But it is, right? Right, so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean- But- Yeah … these, the five A’s still apply here. Yeah. Yeah, and that’s addiction for you. Like, it, it just starts to take everything out, take your life over, and, and, and the, the, the, like, the worse the addiction, the more intrusive thoughts you’re gonna have and the, the more intense cravings you’re gonna have.
That’s just a fact of the matter. Mm-hmm. And, but the, the beauty is, is I’ve seen people in the depths of it, um, [00:57:00] find real solid recovery and long-term sobriety. So if, like, if anyone’s listening and they’re thinking, like, “I don’t, I don’t know if I can ever beat these cravings. I’ve tried a gazillion times, and they’ve always won.”
Yeah. Um, well, I’ve seen people like you try one more time, and something- Yeah … clicks, and then all of a sudden one day leads to the next, and you, you have years of sobriety, so. Yeah. I talk about how- There was a time when I couldn’t make it to noon without a bong hit. Yeah. Like- Yeah … I could not, I could not, and I…
That was white-knuckling it. That was, like, really, like, white-knuckling that whole time, trying not to do it. Isn’t that, isn’t that crazy when you look back on that and- Yeah. Yeah. I was just talking to my husband. We were driving around somewhere, and I go, “You know what? It’s so weird to me that, like, I was high 24/7.”
I remember I used to go to this, uh, Southern [00:58:00] Baptist church, and the, uh, pastor’s daughter was a big stoner. She and I used to get so high all the time, and she goes, “Arlina, I’m high so often that not being high is my altered reality.” Wow. And I was like- Wow … “I wanna be just like you.” Yeah. Yeah. And I got to that place where, you know what, mission accomplished.
I was- Yeah … high 24/7. Um, but I had sort of that… It just wasn’t working for me, and I had to quit everything. I quit drinking five months before I quit smoking pot, and, and that was, that was really hard because I wasn’t having, like, the huge consequences- Mm-hmm … like I was with alcohol. With alcohol I was having huge consequences, but with weed I, I wasn’t.
But I just- That’s a lot of times the case, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the, yeah. They, they call that, like, the, the trapdoor. It’s like you can- Yeah … just keep falling through this trapdoor ’cause it doesn’t… There’s not a lot of… I wasn’t experiencing a lot. But what happened to me was [00:59:00] that, um, I re- like, it took me 60 days to get 30, so I relapsed like right at the end of my 30 days and smoked weed, and I re- I had to come to the realization that I was, like, powerless over that too.
Like, I, because it was, um… I was, I, I came home. I was living with my mom and my sister, and I was super irritable, and it was- Yeah … affecting my relationships with them, and I could see the direct correlation between smoking weed and then feeling irritable and then not being able to respond or behave in the way I really wanted to.
Like, it was affecting- Mm-hmm … my relationships. I can remember taking the dog for a walk going, “Oh my God, I’m powerless over this too.” Wow. “I have to stop this too.” And I didn’t think I’d ever be… You know, like you said, I just tried one more time, and it’s- Right … been 32 years. There you go. We got a living, breathing example right here, right?
Yes. So. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I love your story because it’s like, yeah, [01:00:00] it was, it, it was owning you. Yeah. Sober for 32 years, so- Yeah … re- recovery’s real Yeah, and in- interestingly enough, I had a dream last night that I was eating THC gummies. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It, it, it st- it still hangs out, right? The addiction’s still around.
Yeah, I just woke up- And I’m like, “Hey,” … and I go- “what do you know?” … it’s almost like my dreams remember each other, ’cause in my dream- Uh … I was like, “Oh, but you’ve smoked weed before. You’ve, you’ve had alcohol before,” but those were only in my dreams. Mm-hmm. Like, I r- I’m aware of my sobriety. Do you know? Right.
It, it’s just- Right … so bizarre. Yeah. That is bizarre. But I, I didn’t wake up feeling bad about it or anything. I, I was like, “Oh, that’s weird.” Probably ’cause I was just talking to my husband about, “I can’t believe it’s been 32 years and I was so addicted to weed,” and I had a dream about it, so it’s fine. Yeah.
Whatever. That’s crazy. That’s crazy. I don’t feel bad about it. Yeah. No, and you shouldn’t. No. Not one bit. I just go, “Wow.” Not one bit. “Look at that.” Yeah. Get curious. Yeah. Yeah. They [01:01:00] say that no how f- no matter how far down the road you go, you’re still s- the same distance from the ditch. Yes. Yes. It’s true.
Like, it’s waiting for me. It’s true. That’s why you- No, thank you. Yep. No, thank you. But it’s not far away. Yeah. So, yeah. Not today, Satan. Yeah, exactly. Well, listen, this has been so helpful. Um, I really feel like we kinda delivered on our promise of, you know, you know, what to expect the thr- first 30 days, raw emotions, don’t make decisions, get support, be gentle with yourself, um, all that stuff.
And, and the five As, um, of observing feelings, being aware, accept, acknowledge, assess, and act. These, and some tools. Thank you for mentioning the tools too. Yeah. You bet. Um, I feel like that was… Was there anything that, uh, you wanted to mention y- that I maybe didn’t ask or left out? No, I just think this has been a lot of fun.
I mean- Yeah … talking a- anywhere [01:02:00] from, like, my spirituality to, like, little, like, practical tools for relapse prevention. Like, you basically, like, encompassed my life in, like, a quick little podcast here. So it’s been fun. Yay. Listen, it was such a joy to speak with you. Uh, thank you so much for having me on your podcast.
I’ll actually leave a link to your podcast in the, in the show notes, that you guys are on YouTube as well. So, um, I’ll leave links to that. But, uh, yeah, thank you so much for spending some time with me today. You’re welcome. Thank you for having me.
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