What if the hardest chapter of your life turned out to be the doorway to the person you were always meant to become? For anyone in recovery, divorce can feel like standing in the wreckage of everything you built, especially when the conflict refuses to end. But there is a way through that leaves you stronger, clearer, and finally in control.
My guest this week is Ksenia Muench, a divorce coach who specializes in high-conflict divorce and post-separation abuse. Ksenia did not learn this from a textbook. She survived her own six-figure, high-conflict divorce, a process that dragged on for nearly two years until she made one crucial shift, then finalized everything in six months. Now she helps women navigate the same storm with strategy and self-respect.
Take Back the Driver’s Seat
Ksenia’s core message is that you are the CEO of your divorce. Not your attorney, not your financial planner, not even your coach. Her biggest mistake was letting her attorney become her therapist, her venting tool, and her ride or die, all while billing $500 to $700 an hour. The moment she switched roles and put herself in charge, everything moved. “You learn how to hire and fire the team on your side. It’s you. You are the CEO of your divorce, nobody else.”
Stop Reacting
In a high-conflict dynamic, the other person is looking for a reaction, because a reaction means they still have control. Ksenia teaches women to become a gray rock. She paints a picture of Tom and Jerry, the dog on a leash barking while Jerry sits calmly just out of reach. You do not need to poke back. You just stay in the space where they cannot touch you, and eventually the conflict gets boring. Crucially, she insists on grounding yourself without numbing, because reaching for a substance only steals the creativity you are about to need.
Rebuild Who You Are
Divorce shatters your trust in yourself, and the real work is realigning with who you actually are. One of Ksenia’s favorite exercises is going through your closet with three piles, ruthlessly, and noticing what you have been dressing yourself in. Black, gray, and navy told her the truth about how she felt. Today her closet is every color of the rainbow.
Divorce is full destructive mode. You get shattered, and now you have a chance to rebuild yourself.
There really is a treasure under every trigger. When something ends, something else begins, and you get to decide who you want to be next. Grieve the old life, get support, and then let yourself get excited about what you can build. All things are possible from here.
Action Items
- Put yourself in the CEO seat of your divorce and stop outsourcing your decisions.
- Hire specialists who stay in their lane so your attorney time is short and effective.
- Practice the gray rock method: when there is no real question, do not respond.
- Self-soothe without numbing, and protect your creativity.
- Set clear goals for your settlement and your future life before you negotiate.
- Consider a business or creative outlet to reclaim a sense of control.
- Do the closet exercise: three piles, and notice what your clothes reveal.
- Redefine success for yourself, stripped of career, marriage, and other people’s expectations.
Resources Mentioned
- Ksenia Muench’s coaching: thriveagaindivorcecoaching.com
- Ksenia’s podcast: Uncoupled and Unfiltered
- High Conflict Playbook, her 8-week live group intensive for women: highconflictplaybook.com
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Transcript
Ksenia Muench
. [00:00:00] Well, Ksenia, thank you so much for joining me today. Oh, thank you so much for, for having me. Yeah, I’m so excited to talk about it. Yeah, this’ll be, this’ll be really good. So I was just prepping you ahead of time you’re not somebody that is a sober person.
That’s not your area of expertise, but – No … area of expertise is you are a divorce coach. And why I thought it would be so important to talk to you is because there are a lot of people in recovery that end up going through a divorce, or they’re in the process of going through a divorce, and so we wanted to provide some real valuable information.
So by the end of this episode, you’re gonna understand the emotional component of going through a divorce, how to stay grounded, how to stay rational, all those kinds of things. Mm-hmm. You know, what to do when emotion gets really high, and some tactical solutions around this whole process. So, maybe we could just start off by maybe telling me your experience.
I understand that, um, you’ve had- Mm … firsthand experience about this. What do you want to say about [00:01:00] that? I had the experience that I hope not that many people go through, but turns out I was not in the minority, so I went through high-conflict divorce. And what it basically means is that it’s, uh, post-separation abuse.
So because the divorce and all the tactics that are used in the divorce and make it high conflict is basically it’s the harassment, it’s making things difficult, stalling the process when you are just trying to move on, and that also drains your bank account, it drains your mental health, and if we’re talk- That, that’s the experience that I went through.
So I’m six years out of, like, separated and divorced for multiple years right now, but it doesn’t stop. That, that’s the dynamic I’m in. So even though the, the papers are signed, decree is done high conflict divorce is a joke, never sleeps, and that’s when I realized there is a huge emotional component because you are drained all the time.
You’re constantly thinking what the next step may be from them. What is the next shoe to drop? And also another piece is that you are constantly, like, there is some [00:02:00] sort of threat always present, and it doesn’t stop. There’s gonna be post-divorce judgments. There’s gonna be harassment. There’s gonna be stalking.
So, like, the high-conflict dynamic, you have to be very strategic and tactical, plus you need to know how to self-soothe without relying on things like alcohol, drugs, like the numbing things that people use a lot just because it’s so overwhelming. So like when I work with people, I have to find ways and solutions for them that we use healthier ways to handle stress and get grounded so you can be tactical and strategic when it comes to your divorce.
What are some of the tactics, emotional tactics… I mean, I, listen, when you mention things like, uh, post-separation abuse, I can’t tell you how many stories that I’ve heard from people- people that are they’re stressed out about the money. They’re- Yes … stressed out about the fighting, uh, the delay tactics, all this stuff.
Does this all typically stem from a divorce where one person didn’t want to [00:03:00] get divorced? No, the way I see it usually there is a point of acceptance. So if both people, even one didn’t want divorce, and they’re catching up with the timeline of another person who filed for divorce, there is a point where there is acceptance and they just move on.
They are no longer … Maybe they’ve remarried, maybe they’re in a new relationship, but they focus on the kids, and they’re not trying to continue harass the other partner. Mm-hmm. So when we’re talking about continued tactics of harassment and like, the, the legal f- and financial draining, that’s a big one- Mm
because if they have more money, they will drain the other party significantly. It has more to do with the loss of control and a lack of engagement. So they’re looking for ways to re-engage with you, but if you put boundaries where there’s, like, no communication, what other ways they can engage with you?
Through kids. Mm-hmm. Through court system, which allows groundless filings, or if they [00:04:00] just run into you somewhere in an open space, they will harass you, they will stalk you there. And depending if you’re in a place where you no longer respond, they’re gonna harass you even more because they want this reaction.
But if you engage, then they’re gonna be like, “Ah, I still got you.” So it’s, it’s almost like a game, but it comes from the place of loss of control- Mm-hmm … and the idea that they’ve have been wronged and humiliated, and now they want to make sure that you pay for it. Punishing. Yeah. What is your process when somebody comes to you as a coach, a divorce coach?
Do you have a specific process that you take somebody through? Mm-hmm. So they initially, uh, there are two ways to work with me, and one is one-on-one coaching, and I think that’s the one we- Mm … we will focus on. Usually we start with a just conversation, like, a quick 15-minute call just to understand where you’re at and if I can be of help to you.
Because, again, coming [00:05:00] from I am very specific niche. I’m a high conflict. High conflict. So I focus when I work with you, and I work with you best, because this is what I understand so well, is when you are going through a very challenging divorce experience. You’re trying to move on and somebody’s clawing at you, and they’re using gaslighting, manipulation children alienation.
Everything that you think of nasty that’s where I shine to help you. And we decide whether you want to go just a one-off session to understand the map of how it’s gonna play out or what steps you need to take to protect yourself, or we engage for multiple months to make sure that you are prepared every step of the way.
But what we usually cover before we even start with anything, we need to make sure that my client is in a place where they can make a decisions, because nobody can make decisions for the clients. All I do is I bring- Mm-hmm … the client to a place where they can advocate for themselves. If they understand they’re, uh, the one driving the [00:06:00] bus.
It’s not the attorney, it’s not the financial planner, it’s not the coach. You’re the- in the driver’s seat, and you learn how to hire and fire the team on your side. It’s you. You are the CEO of your divorce, nobody else. And this is the place where I bring you first. And then we decide the goals and outcomes you want of the divorce, because without goals- What are you deciding?
Tell me what I’m entitled to. No, no, no. You need to decide what you want in a settlement, how you want the custody schedule to look like, how do you want your future life to look like, which also leads building the settlement in such a way. It’s still gonna be within legal framework, because you cannot get more than you’re entitled by law.
But you need to have the goals, you need to have clear expectations, and you, you need to have a vision for the future. And if you don’t have that, you’re gonna be just, like, caught in the rip current and hope you come out unscathed. Yeah. I think goals are so important in everything, right? It, it actually defines the path.
The goal [00:07:00] defines the path. Mm-hmm. But a lot of times when we go through divorce, we think the goals are given to us by the attorneys. I was w- that person. I come in and I’m like, “Okay, what… Tell me what I’m supposed to know and tell me what I want.” No, that, that’s not how it works. So it took me a few years to understand that and learn that.
But essentially, you get to the point, okay, I am educated enough to know what I’m entitled to, what I want, what I can do, what I cannot do. So it’s, educational piece is a huge one. It is. But again, you need to be in a place where you can process. I was just gonna say, when you said that it took a few years for you to deci- I was thinking, “Oh, my gosh, that must have been so expensive.”
Oh, that divorce, the high-conflict divorce comes- Yeah … like, with a six-figure price tag. Yeah. So it’s … But here’s, here’s my mistake. This is what, the mistake I made, and I do not want other people, other women, to make this mistake. I [00:08:00] did not engage the coach. I did not know the coaches existed. That was my big mistake.
Mm-hmm. So I went to an attorney for any sort of support, and I had therapist, but I had attorney. It was my CPA, it was my financial advisor, it was my venting tool, it was my ride or die for divorce. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the, my attorney was the CEO of my divorce until I switched the roles. Yeah. So it took me about year and a half out of almost two-year divorce process, to switch the roles.
And once the roles switched, I was able to finalize within six months. That’s so interesting, because I don’t think people realize that they can switch the roles. Like, s- that’s why it’s so important. I’m all about talking to specialists, right? Like, um, people talk about going to therapy to overcome- Yes
addictions and trauma and stuff like that. But you want somebody that specializes in addiction, because that has a particular subset [00:09:00] of nuance and- Yes … and if you’ve never experienced it, then you don’t understand. So I think it’s so important to have… it makes sense to me that you would have somebody just on your side- Mm-hmm
to be like, “Hey, this is how to work with the attorney. This is how to work with your, you know-” soon-to-be ex, uh, how to work with the kids family members- Mm-hmm … I would imagine everybody- Yep … has an opinion. Your financial advisor. So it makes a lot of sense to have just one source, one person that can be sort of the holder of all the things.
I call myself like a quarterback of divorce. Yeah. And what a lot of people don’t understand is that they think, “Oh, now I have to spend money on coach. Now I have to spend money on financial planner.” What they don’t understand, they’re hiring experts. So instead of coming unprepared to the attorney, sending emails that don’t belong there- Yeah
it, it doesn’t belong in their ear- uh, inbox. You spend time first, coach is different billing [00:10:00] compared to attorneys. I was just gonna say, the divorce attorney pr- is probably billing at, like, 500 bucks an hour or something. It’s usually $500 to $700, yes. Yeah. So every question, every text message you send it’s billable for them.
Yeah. So it- Yeah … actually costs you less when you- For sure … engage the experts, because the experts are very laser-focused, and we are staying in our lanes. We guide you to make decisions, and then when you go to an attorney, your, your communications and your sessions now are very effective. So instead of spending an hour- Yeah
for you, like, 30 minutes of venting and then, “What should I do?” You spend 15 minutes, say, “This is what I’m looking for. Can we execute it?” Yeah. That’s a big difference. And so- That makes a lot of sense … I agree with you. Having people who understand the nuances of the divorce process is very different than engaging, like you said, therapist who doesn’t know anything about sobriety or being addicted to um, [00:11:00] substances, and they’re trying to help somebody to recover.
Yeah. That doesn’t work. It doesn’t usually. No, it doesn’t. No. Okay, so let’s get into some of the practical, tactical- Okay … ’cause I want to be able to walk away from people. When pe- some people are really going to be like, “Oh, my God, I’m going through a divorce,” or, “I’m post-divorce and dealing with a lot of manipulation.”
So I have a client in mind that I work with, and what I’ve heard her talk a lot about is the custody arrangement. Like, she actually had an alcohol issue, and she got in trouble, and so now he holds that over her head, and he’s super controlling, and he’s mad about, like… I don’t think he wanted, he didn’t want the divorce, so he’s punishing her.
Mm-hmm. So in a case like that, what are some of the strategies you can offer somebody to, like, both maintain emotional grounding and manage that [00:12:00] situation? Well, emotional grounding, I think one way is establish boundary. In a way, whatever e- he’s doing, you have no control over it. Mm-hmm. Whatever he’s telling the kids, whatever, you have to let go.
You have to, number one, accept this is who he is, and he’s not gonna change. Right now he feels he has leverage because he has an emotional reaction out of her. So you need to understand dynamic. If we give in and we show some sort of reaction, and when kids are involved, it’s very easy as moms to get triggered.
Whatever he’s doing, you have to be almost like a gray rock. Let him do it. Stop defending yourself. And establish also s- a strong boundaries in terms of you control what’s happening in the house. If he is attacking you and there is nothing for you to respond, there is no question, don’t respond. Don’t engage.
Just let, let the, the email, let the text message go. If he calls, do you need to talk? No. Let it [00:13:00] go to voicemail. With children, focus on being the best parent that you can, and parent the kids and be present with the kids as if the other parent is out of the picture completely. That’s why when it comes to that sort of dynamic when one partner is very angry and trying to establish control over another one, the best thing you can do is, like, create the bubble, your own bubble, and let them
It’s the best visual I can do, like Tom and Jerry. Do you remember when the dog was barking, and there is a leash, and he put, like, a line- … so he, like, goes and does it, and the dog cannot reach him? I do remember that. So that’s what you do. That’s so funny. You put a line- Yeah … and let them bark. But you s- stay some- you don’t need to smack him with a stick so he barks, but you just need to stay in that space where you know they cannot reach you.
And so, yes- That’s true … he will use it against her just because it, it feels like he’s winning. He’s smearing her. And listen, if she had an issue and she was going through that, it’s hard to blame somebody, [00:14:00] because when you go through that, you’re truly looking for outlets to stay sane. So I- Mm-hmm
understand how the danger of Relying on something like that. Mm-hmm. But again, if she’s… It’s not even if she’s clear. She’s a good mom, she’s present with the kids, and that’s what you should do. Let him do his thing. Yeah. Do not react, that’s the biggest thing, and eventually it gets boring. Yeah. Uh, what I, what I see, uh, I can’t speak to a personal experience on this, but what I’ve seen is that, like, what would somebody do when the parent, when they have the children, they make different choices.
For instance, um, he’s super controlling over the… Like, both the kids are in sports. Mm-hmm. When he… And he has them the majority of the time right now, and he’s making his daughter, like, train too much. Like, h- he’s having her exercise too much- Mm-hmm … and doing things like that, and the daughter wants to be [00:15:00] with the mom.
It’s like, how do, how do you man- Like, it doesn’t s- I, I don’t feel like she’s overreacting, but I think her heart breaks for her kids. Yes. Yes. So how do you stay l- like, what would be your- That one is really hard. It is, yeah. That one is really hard because I went through that too. I, I’ve seen things- Wow
happening, and it was like, you want to help because your first instinct is to help. But when you’re in this situation, you, when your children speak to you, you need to listen, validate that what they’re feeling is good, and you need to teach them to advocate for themselves. I know it’s not always easy- Mm
and it’s very scary for the children. But you need to put yourself in the position- that I am here. I love you regardless. This is your relationship with the dad, and you need to learn to speak up to your dad. Mm-hmm. I cannot step up here for you because we’re no longer married. So it’s almost like [00:16:00] I, my relationship with dad ended, your relationship continues.
So she can work with her kids- Got it … to teach the tactics based on her knowledge about her ex-husband, how to communicate, how to be effective in the communication, and also teaches her daughter how to advocate for herself. So it’s, there are a lot of skills, but the biggest thing, she does have to step away.
She cannot go and rescue her. Yeah. She needs to teach her- Right … to, to speak up. That’s so interesting. Yeah. So that is something I understand very well. Like, I appreciate, you know, acknowledge and validate feelings. That’s so important. Like what you’re feeling- Yes … is valid, and also communication skills, right?
As the adults need to learn how to communicate with each other, you know- Mm-hmm … it’s also teaching those same skills with the kids. I find that what [00:17:00] deescalates s- sometimes and really communicates is just the I statements, right? Mm-hmm. Like, as I teach my clients to say I statements, like, “This is how I feel.”
Yep. And they’re gonna come back with something, and you, that might be true, but this is how I feel. People can’t argue with how you feel. Like that’s- Mm-hmm … that’s you. And so we can teach these same skills to the kids. Do you have any other, uh, tactics or strategies to teaching children how to communicate with their parent?
The, uh, y- again, we’re, the kids are smart. One thing I think- Yeah … we as parents need to understand, the kids are way smarter than we give them credit for. True. And they also, they learn survival tools way quicker than we do. Yeah. So if they are not comfortable speaking or they just let things, like, blow over, like the parent is, [00:18:00] I do not know, berating or just blowing up, and the kid’s just quiet because they know it’s gonna go away faster this way.
Mm-hmm. And if they speak up, it’s gonna be worse. Yeah. So we need to also get to the point with children that they know the dynamic with the other parent better than we do at this point. Yeah. There’s gonna be a point, and we need to trust that they know or they’re comfortable with the situation. Another thing where, like, when we hear the children, I spoke to one co-parenting expert, and she was incredible.
The children work homes, they can be manipulative. For sure. They work homes- Yeah, I was j- I was just thinking about that … to get what they want. Yeah. So we feel like, let’s say they come in and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I don’t wanna play soccer anymore, and the dad is doing me this and this and this,” and the dad is hearing, “Oh, I want to play more soccer.”
And then now two parents are, like, fighting, like, “Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I’m hearing she doesn’t want to play soccer,” and [00:19:00] he’s like, “No, but I’m hearing she wants to play something different.” We need to be also discerning what we’re hearing. Yeah. So it’s, it’s y- you know, it’s like the tactic is how do we find peace that we may think our child is not safe or not comfortable or not happy there?
One tactic is, again, speak up for yourself. If something bothers you, you need to learn to speak up. Yeah. If you are not speaking up, it means you are comfortable, and then we need to be okay with that because you are choosing that for you. Yeah. I mean, there’s when they’re very little, it’s a different dynamic.
Right. But when they’re like the teenage, the early teenage years, kids are very outspoken. You know, when they need money- You know they’re gonna come in and ask you without any shyness. So- Yeah … that- that’s why it’s, we have to trust whatever kids are doing, it also works for them. Yeah. They’re not as out of they’re not as no power- Right
as we think they are. Yeah. They, they have a lot of power. That is very true. So, uh- Yeah … it’s [00:20:00] just- I’m so glad you brought up, I’m so glad you brought up the man- like, manipulation for a lack of a better word. Like, I g- I, you know, kids have a pretty- I- … clear goal, which is get what they want. You know?
Yes. They’re pretty clear about that. So I appreciate you pointing out this fact that, uh, that can also be a factor and to really put- It- … the responsibility, uh, to a certain extent on the children, age dependent- Mm-hmm, yes … and all that stuff, about you need to learn how to manage your relationship.
I can give you tools and suggestions, but it’s really- Mm-hmm … it’s really about you. Kids are very selfish people. They are very self-centered. And it, it just- That’s, yeah … we were them too. That’s, yes. S- so, like again, it took me personally a while to understand that. It took me some time to see the manipulation and the game.
Yeah. But it was because I finally got to the point, I heard something from the other side, and I’m like, “Oh, crap, you’re hearing completely different things. So you’re [00:21:00] thinking you’re defending our son. I’m thinking I’m defending our son. And here we are fighting, and our son’s like little angel, like pr- That is, I wonder, that must be so hard because if you’re mad at somebody or you have a difficult relationship with somebody, it, I think it’s a natural human tendency to want to, you know, believe the child.
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. I just think we need to get to, again the solution, “I am here, I love you.” Okay. That’s the, that’s what the kids need to know. “I am your safe space.” You need to show that you’re a safe space, not even show proof, but so they feel this way- Yeah … in your house. Focus on that. When they ask about advice about the other house or you see them vent, it’s so easy to fall into a, a trap and be like, “Oh my God, that person and this.”
No. “I hear you. I understand. This is if you want to…” [00:22:00] Another thing I say, uh, uh, suggest my clients, ask them do you, do they want you to provide them a solution or do you want, uh, you just to listen? Oh, so good. So- So good … if you just want me to listen- So good … yeah. Yeah … I am present, I understand, I hear you, whatever they need in terms of support.
But if they want solution, that’s a different story, and solution then comes in and being tactical. Like, “Okay, this is what I know about your dad. This is what may work. You can try this approach. You can try phrase it this way when you want to ask for something.” So you teach them the communication skill, but you need to ask what the kids actually want from you.
Sometimes they just want to vent. That is so important. I, I’m, I’ve been hearing specialists talk about that one particular thing so many times is, like, what your kids really want is for you to listen. They don’t want you to try to, you know, fix them, which I think is really smart because when you’re always trying to help somebody, what you’re actually communicating is that they’re, [00:23:00] that they’re not capable, and it makes- Exactly
it, it’s either going to create a victim mentality or a dependency that you don’t actually want. Also creates resentment. Oh, huge Another thing that we need to understand, and I think we need to stop, stop being ashamed- Yeah … we as parents, we can feel resent- resentment toward our children, and our children feel resentment toward us- Oh, yeah
because in their mind the house was fine, and then one person, like in this case, your client, she left. Mm-hmm. So kids’ lives got turned upside down when they thought everything was fine. Obviously it wasn’t, because the family’s women don’t just leave just because things are, were fine, right? So the children resent mom for making the decision and breaking up the family, regardless of, they just know mom left, right?
And then we may resent because we are put in this position where we have to communicate. We feel we’re judged, we feel we’re harassed, we feel we’re shackled because we’re connected to the partner we’re no longer to [00:24:00] be connected to through our children, and we can see manipulation, and we can hear, like, reminders of their life still present in our lives, and we do not want that.
So recognizing the feeling that resentment is real- Oh, yeah … both goes ways. I think it also helps to mentally first process and not judge yourself, but also mentally be okay parenting just on your own side and manage the relationship. How do I build relationship with my children that 20 years down the road they actually still want to come and spend time with me?
Mm-hmm. Right now it’s rocky. If she doesn’t have much custody, it’s do the children want to come back in the future? That’s what really is telling, because the kids see the, the other party is controlling. The kids can see they’re not having a say. They have not freedom of choice. They see it. They resent it.
Yeah. Yeah. I- I’m curious we- we’re mostly talking about, the perspective from the woman’s side. Do you also coach- Mm-hmm … men or only women? No. I decided- Okay … I understand women [00:25:00] struggle better because I- Uh-huh … I, I am a woman. I don’t want to assume how men can feel, and also men’s approach is very different.
Like, for what I know about men, when they go through divorce, it’s loss of status a lot of times, it’s reputation, right? They were married, now they’re no longer married, and it’s the money. It’s financial aspect. Mm-hmm. For women, a lot of times when it comes to divorce, women tend to lose more.
It, the whole identity is just gone. You have to start from scratch. You were a mom full-time. You were a wife full-time. Now none of it exists, including mom. Mom, you are only part-time. Mm-hmm. So you have to find your identity again. A lot of times you have to financially rebuild yourself, and you are more worried about children than finances.
So knowing that dynamic, I just advocate, I help women find their own voice versus men- It’s a different- Yeah … different perspective It’s, it’s a different dynamic- Yeah … and [00:26:00] I just I don’t think I’m gonna be as effective as- Yeah … in when I’m doing with women I only ask because, yeah, I only ask because, uh, I have a friend of mine who reached out to me to talk about he was really struggling with his ex after a divorce, and it was a lot of the same issues, right?
Um, control over schedule, not agreeing with how they’re parenting you know- Mm-hmm … concern for the kids, um, the financial strain. I, I… It doesn’t seem to me that the financial strain on either side gets any better. For both parties it gets pretty tough. However, uh, since we foc- you focus mostly on women, um, the financial aspect for a woman if, if the man was the primary provider, so he’s in control of the money.
Mm-hmm. So, talk to me a little bit about how to handle the financial issues in that scenario. Thankfully our law is set up in such a way that [00:27:00] women get spousal support based on their marital standard of living. Every state is different how they calculate it, but California’s marital standard of living, the last three to five years, they, uh, determine how much was average household income, what the expenses were, and they usually split somewhere in such a way close in the middle, like maybe 51/49, 52/48.
So 52 goes to a man and 48 about for a woman. But the spousal to make su- uh, support is to make sure that the standard of living is somewhat equal right now. But, uh, for a woman, I mean, a lot of times I see women after post-divorce, they, uh, start new businesses. They don’t really go, uh … They can go back to, to work, they try to find, but they start businesses because number one, this is one way of handling actually stress and loneliness.
And just cortisol spiking. Because when you are putting all that energy into something creative, and this is [00:28:00] something that gives you control back of your life. Because this now the aspect, divorce feels like life is completely out of control, but when you start your own business, you’re like, “That’s something I can control.”
That’s one healthy way of grounding yourself and getting out of that mental rut and constantly thinking about divorce and how frustrating it is to deal with a co-parent or the former partner. So a lot of women start businesses, and based on how quickly they establish, this is how they get more financially independent.
But spousal support is definitely the kickstart of the process of, um, helping them get the, on their feet. Yeah. I, I’ve, I’ve unfortunately seen a couple scenarios where the man is self-employed, so he can- Oh, shit. That’s like a big, a big loophole sometimes. So- Mm-hmm … um, I love this idea of starting a business.
I, I always advocate for that anyway. I’m a solopreneur myself, so I always advocate- Mm-hmm … you know, have [00:29:00] something that you control, especially in this economy. You know, I come from Silicon Valley. Yes. I u- used to be in tech, and my husband’s in tech, and he’s last man standing on his team. They laid off everybody else.
He’s the last. And so tech layoffs are huge. And so I think it’s always wise for somebody, even if it’s a side hustle, to have something that, uh- Mm-hmm … they can do to generate income on the side. And I also think we as women, the corporate world is not built for a woman. Mm-hmm. And at the… We as moms, especially when we’re single moms, and if we do not have proper support like when, again, my…
I a- I am originally from Russia, so my family is all in Russia. I’m, I’m one and only standing here, no safety net, no nothing. So I, when I was working full time, I was in sales, so I had more flexibility. But the corporate world is not set up for a woman because she’s the primary caretaker usually, especially when you go through divorce, you’re a single mom.
You, kids are [00:30:00] sick, what are you gonna do? You’re gonna go. So establishing something that you can control and you can pour your heart and soul into it, which means it fulfills your purpose. You feel so much better and happier when you do something that you truly love. Yeah. I 100% agree. I love that.
It’s such an empowering experience too. I think it helps to build self-esteem, and, and I think that’s- Yes … something that really suffers after an event like this. What other issues, um, what are some of the top issues that you tend to work with women on? Uh, a lot of time- That we haven’t mentioned. Yeah, a lot of times, you know, it’s rebuilding trust in themselves.
Mm. It’s realigning with who they are. So yes, we’re gonna talk strategy about divorce. It’s I call it like it’s a chess game. You- once you know the moves, you understand. The, the moves can be a little different, but you understand how to play the game, [00:31:00] you know the rules. The biggest thing is finding yourself after such a transition because you, you truly completely lose trust, especially after you leave abusive marriages and you’re like, “How the hell did I end up in this?”
So therapy is one thing, but you think something is broken with you, and a lot of times you are damaged. You cannot come out completely unscathed from a bad relationship. Yeah. And so I work with women help them regain trust and realign with inner self. And I know it sounds woo woo, but in reality it’s who I am today, what do I want, what do I like?
Because a lot of times we don’t even know what we like. I still have friends and I have clients who came in, and I remember one client, she was dating and dating. She didn’t want to be alone, and she didn’t know what she, what she wanted. And I’m like, “What do you want?” She’s like, I just, I think he’s cute.”
I’m like, “No.” But, and she’s like, “I don’t want this.” And I’m like, “I get it, but we don’t come from what I don’t want.” That’s a [00:32:00] great baseline, but you now need to get to the point, what do I want? And it’s not like, oh, he needs to be 6’0 and, you know, like 180 pounds and, and do this and this. What are the internal characteristics that make your body relax and feel safe?
So you need first to understand who you are, direction you want to go, and then we can create criteria for your next partner. But it’s building trust in yourself. It’s being comfortable on your own before you can date. It truly… I know it sounds cliche, nobody likes to hear it, but you have to spend time alone.
What do you like to wear? I still have friends, they like, “Oh, I do not know if I like this dress.” I’m like, “How about let’s do this?” Go… Another one, uh, one of my favorite exercises of, like grounding and clarity, go through a closet. Be not like maybe, maybe, maybe one day, be ruthless. Create three piles.
Absolutely no, not lo- no longer me. Love, keep [00:33:00] it. This one- Just put it somewhere where you don’t see it, and see if you miss it. And then when you go to the store, go and, “This is what I want.” And do not wait for the moment to wear it. Like, I started doing, I will go grocery shopping in four-inch heels. Why?
Because I love it. It makes me feel good. I don’t care what people think. I dress for me, and I dress how I feel on the specific day. And I think it’s so fun to almost, like, show yourself through, whether it’s hair, whether it’s, uh, the, the style of clothes you’re wearing. Just be you, and get to know you.
That’s a big part of, like, once divorce does settle, it’s very difficult to do during because you are m- … distracted by other things. But to get to know you, that’s so damn exciting Yeah, I love that. That really is… I can just… Listen, you, you look like a supermodel for those people who are just listening to this.
I can’t imagine you- [00:34:00] Thank you … in warrior, four jeans. I think four jeans must get so much attention. But, you know, it’s, it’s funny. It’s, people… I go to Costco, and I do wear, like, I put a dress and, and boots, and people come up to me and say, “It is so nice to see someone with something outside of workout clothes.”
And to me, I have… My kids don’t even know I had… I have one pair of sweats. One. And they didn’t know I had it, because I never wear it, because… And I’m like, it’s, there are so many ways to play with styles- Yeah … and just have fun with that. And again- Yeah … it’s not for anybody. This is for you. Make yourself feel beautiful.
Yeah. That’s all it is. So you look in the mirror and be like, “Damn yeah.” And how wonderful it is. Yesterday I wore, like, a summer dress. Yeah. It was nothing special. One woman, she’s like, “Oh my gosh, I love the way it looks. Thank- Like, you look amazing.” I’m like, “Thank you.” I, I’m wearing flip-flops and, and, like, a summer dress.
But it’s, I think at the end of the [00:35:00] day, it becomes almost like an aura. It’s energy. It’s presence. For sure. Because you love the way you look. Yeah. And that’s where I want women to get to. So going back to working with guys, I cannot help him this way. I mean, I cannot get him- … like, “Oh my gosh, this dress for you,” in a way.
But he’s probably gonna look at me like, “What’s wrong with you?” For a woman, it’s different. You understand that. Yeah. Yeah. No, I’ve s- I’ve seen some guys talk about, you know, y- the way you dress, you know, sort of tells the world who you are. Yeah. So I’ve seen, I’ve seen a little bit of that. Um, but I’m more like you.
I, I mostly deal with women. M- my male clients don’t… That’s not, like, a thing for them. That’s not a thing. They… Yeah. Anyway, it’s a whole thing. But I think what you’re talking about, this idea of, you know, deciding who you wanna be and creating that person, like, identity is a huge piece of- trusting yourself again. And anytime… You know, I do this self-esteem class, and so it’s after- Mm-hmm … heartbreak, addiction, trauma. [00:36:00] Because what gets shattered, like you said, is your self-trust. And so we need- Yeah … to have a little bit of time. This is just psychology. It’s neurology. It’s, it’s not woo-woo.
Like, our feelings are really important. Our beliefs- Mm-hmm … that we hold are really important. That’s why, uh, I really appreciate your perspective on how to re- rebuild trust- Mm-hmm … and how to feel good about yourself again, right? Those are all identity related issues. I think as women we tend, like I said, we tend to lose ourselves in a family dynamic.
Yeah. Because we are- Almost like our body is wired this way, but also by society we’re trained to keep giving and put ourselves in very last spot. Yeah. So we never pay attention to ourselves- Right … when we are, especially when the kids are young. And, being in, in a family, being married you become a wife.
So when I left, and actually it was only this year, we talked about the big-ass calendar, and one of the things that I want to do this [00:37:00] year for myself, redefine what success is- Yes … outside of career, being a mother, being a partner or in a relationship. What is success for me if all of those things are stripped away?
That is also such a great mental exercise to get yourself out of the mental rut and kind of, like, bring yourself down get grounded. Because all of a sudden you sit and you start truly being curious. You ask questions without judgment or shame. Mm-hmm. What is important to me? Do I consider myself successful?
And for me this year, I’m like, “Hell yeah. Yeah, I consider myself successful,” outside of all of the other success factors that society wants us to have. So something like that, it also helps you find your identity- Yeah … who you are. And it all comes down to being aligned. So- Yeah … it’s, divorce is it’s like a full destructive mode.
You get shattered, [00:38:00] and now you have a chance to rebuild yourself. So what do you want your future to look like? That’s so good. What do you want to look like? That’s so good. There, there’s a… You know, they say that there’s a, like, I always say there’s a treasure under every trigger. You know, the destruction, like, any time something ends, it’s a beginning of something else.
And it, you know, if we can get to that place where you talked earlier about letting go- Yes … right? It’s like letting go of the old life. We mourn that. We validate that. Yeah. We get support. We heal from that. But then as you’re talking about it, it’s like, let’s get excited about what we can create- Mm-hmm
’cause then all things are possible. We can redefine who we are, what we’re capable of. I think it’s so important to have somebody like you who’s positive and m- be like, “Yeah, all that stuff is valid, but what are we gonna build- Yep … from here?” Who do you wanna be? Mm-hmm. Like, we could really reinvent our identity and create the life that we love.
And, you know, maybe this divorce and ex will be, like, an anchor for a while, but they, you will eventually be [00:39:00] free of that- Mm-hmm … you know, when the kids turn 18. Yeah. Like, they’ll always be in your life, but it does change over time. You know, I also just thought of it. As, as women, we can look and and get a quick sn- sneak peek at, in terms of our relationship.
I remember when I was still married and I was going through my closet. Most of my clo- uh, closet clothes was black, gray, navy. That’s a reflection of how I felt. Because right now, you come in, I have all rainbow colors. Mm-hmm. And all of my old, uh, closet, I did not… I probably kept only three or four pieces.
That’s it. Everything else was gone. Gone. Because it no longer was me. Yeah. So for a woman who is like, “Oh, am I in a good relationship?” Well, why don’t you go and just look what you put yourself in every day? If you’re- … every day you’re wearing, I do not know, workout clothes, but you don’t work out. But you don’t work out.
You know, like- I was gonna say, where are [00:40:00] you going? But I see a lot of people here, you know, in California, they’re all wearing workout clothes, and I’m like, “Do you really go to the gym?” Or is it just, like, a statement because it’s Alo or Lululemon or Vuori? I’m like, I know damn well you’re not working out.
Yeah, you’re in Southern California where people are wearing the workout clothes, yeah. Yeah. So but it’s like there are so many ways to see where you’re at and figure out your current identity. Yeah. And also see if this is something you still want to be. Yeah. There are so many questions. You just need to be curious.
You need to get out of this mental stuckness- Mm-hmm … without relying on any substances, without numbing yourself, because numbing stops creativity. We women- Mm … we’re very creative. That’s why the new businesses are founded by women so much more than men. Yeah. So be creative. Yeah, I love that. I think this is a probably a good place to kinda land the plane.
[00:41:00] Where can people find you? I just feel like, you know, if there is somebody listening who is either going through a divorce, like now would be the time- Mm-hmm … to engage somebody to help you be the quarterback, like the divorce QB. But even the post, like h- how to set boundaries and all those things, that’s always so really important.
Where can people find you? So I have my website, which is www.thriveagaindivorcecoaching. There is a lot of informati-… It’s, it is being revamped, so it’s almost ready. It’s getting a facelift, so I’m super excited about that launch. I also host a podcast, Uncoupled and Unfiltered, and people who are not ready to make the step but they can get so much helpful information there.
I talk- Yeah … all things divorce and reinventing yourself life after. And I also just launched a framework for women exclusively who are going through high-conflict divorce, and that is www.highconflictplaybook.com. And that is live group intensive where women can sign up, and we just go [00:42:00] through eight weeks of structured approach where you come out with a strategy, and you have a full understanding and name for every single thing you are feeling or experiencing, so you no longer have to wonder.
I love that. I’ll leave links to all of this in the show notes so you don’t have to try to remember or make a typo going there t- typing it in. Uh, but this was really helpful, and I just really appreciate your perspective. I- it really feels like you have a very solid understanding and a transformational process for somebody that can go from being lost in that high-conflict divorce- Mm-hmm
to coming out on the other side feeling grounded and in control of their lives again. Mm-hmm. I think that is really the, the pitch right there is chaos to clarity. That’s super important. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure speaking with you today. You too. Thanks so [00:43:00] much.
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