What if your money anxiety has nothing to do with money? What if the worry that keeps you up at night, checking accounts that are perfectly fine, was actually wired into your brain decades ago? That is the question at the heart of this episode, and the answer might change how you think about financial fear forever.
My guest Barney Whiter is a financial and career coach known online as The Escape Artist, where he writes about money, wellbeing, and freedom. Barney spent decades in corporate finance, driven by a money fear that took root in 1981 when UK interest rates hit 17% and he watched his parents cancel the newspaper and skip the family holiday to keep their house. He was 10 years old, and that fear followed him into adulthood, no matter how much he earned.
Money Worries Are Not About Money
Barney sees it constantly in his coaching practice: people who are doing well financially but still carry deep-seated anxiety. “Money worries are not just about money. They’re about history and background and beliefs.” The dots almost always connect back to a childhood experience that made money feel like survival.
The Hedonic Treadmill Never Stops
Barney paid off his mortgage at 33, expecting to finally feel safe. The relief lasted about a day. I shared my own version of this: years in tech sales, always working two jobs, believing the next level of income would quiet the fear. It never did. Even billionaires, as Andrew Wilkinson writes in Never Enough, stay terrified.
Treat Anxiety as a Wellbeing Issue
Once your bills are paid and your savings are automated, the answer stops being financial. Barney’s toolkit starts with sleep, then nutrition, resistance training, magnesium and B vitamins, L-theanine, time with people who calm you, and therapy. Fear can fuel a career for a while, but as Barney learned on his way to burnout, fear has a shelf life.
“Money doesn’t solve the fear problem. The real problem is deeper, and so is the solution.”
If you have ever believed that one more raise, one more client, or one more zero in the account would finally make you feel safe, this episode is for you. The peace you are looking for is real, it just is not for sale. Recovery teaches us this lesson over and over: the answer is inside the work, not the wallet.
Action Items
- Trace your money story back to its origin: identify one or two childhood experiences that shaped your beliefs about money
- Get the practical basics handled first: open the bills, automate savings, pay yourself first
- If anxiety persists after the finances are dialed in, look at sleep, nutrition, and hormones
- Prioritize sleep as the foundation of your anti-anxiety toolkit
- Try resistance training: muscle contraction is medicine
- Ask your doctor about magnesium and B vitamin deficiencies
- Notice when you are future tripping and come back to the present moment
- Practice surrender: take the actions you can, then let go of the outcome
Resources Mentioned
- Barney’s website: The Escape Artist (his Substack is linked from his site)
- Never Enough by Andrew Wilkinson
- Huberman Lab sleep stack: magnesium glycinate, L-theanine, apigenin
- Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on muscle as medicine
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Transcript
Barney Whiter
[00:00:00] Well, Barney, thank you so much for joining me again It’s a joy to be back, Arlina It was so funny ’cause you reached out to me and you were like, “Hey, remember we talked about doing part two?” That was a year ago. Yeah. I was like, “What?” Man, time flies when you’re- And here it is. It, it rolls around … time flies when you’re having fun, I suppose.
Um, but we’re gonna be talking… Listen, this is such an important topic. We’re gonna be talking a lot about really financial insecurities, where our money beliefs come from, how they affect us in recovery. I feel like there are so much, so many of us who really suffer from financial insecurity. And I think in this age of AI and layoffs, people are really, you know, feeling the financial insecurity.
There’s a lot of political upheaval. Um, you’re, you’re across the pond. I don’t know if you guys feel it the way we do, but yeah, there’s a lot of- You can feel it … financial [00:01:00] insecurity. Do you? Yeah. So, um, I’m so happy that you reminded me that we were gonna do part two. I’m gonna be your guinea pig today.
I’m super transparent. Um, I’m an open book, so I have some serious money issues- And- … for n- but I was gonna say for no good reason, but there probably is a reason. So I, I’m gonna let you kinda lead this conversation. Well, this is the point. Um, there always is a reason, I think. If you kind of trace back into your earlier life, um, there’s generally some event, experience, shock, surprise that carries through and is often at the root of money worries, um, financial anxiety.
Now, obviously, you know, if you are… if your check’s just bounced and you’re living paycheck to paycheck, y- sure, you’re gonna, you’re gonna experience financial anxiety. That’s just natural and normal. But in, in [00:02:00] my work, um, I’m… I do financial coaching, um, and career coaching, and one of the common themes that I a- see are, are people that are not living paycheck to paycheck.
They’re actually doing pretty well, thank you very much, but they still have this deep-seated, like, money insecurity, financial anxiety, and they’re like, “I don’t quite know where it comes from.” Yeah. Um, so… And a- and maybe, like, like attracts like. Uh, maybe that’s why people follow me or read some of my stuff.
Maybe because I talk about my experiences earlier on in life that triggered financial anxiety, and that drove me on to, in my career, and it drove me on to earn, earn money and save money and invest money. But it kind of was never enough to soothe the anxiety. And so I kind of, I kind of realized that m- [00:03:00] money worries are not just about money.
They’re about history and background and beliefs and- Um, childhood trauma, um, to put it at its strongest. I mean, I, I, I, I hesitate to apply that term to myself. Uh, but certainly when I was, when I was 10, 11 years old, my parents did the classic thing of buying the biggest house that they could afford to buy with as much money borrowed from the bank as the bank would lend them.
And unfortunately, um, later on that year, which was, ooh, back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, this was 1981- … interest rates in the UK went to 17%. And so when you’ve got a big mortgage, and in, in the UK we have var- variable rate mortgages, you don’t lock in the rate for 30 years when you buy the house. It goes up and down with interest rates.
And so when interest- when you’re paying a 17% interest [00:04:00] rate on your mortgage, that’s a bit of a shock. So my parents had to sort of cancel the newspaper. My dad couldn’t afford to buy beer, had to make his own horrible home brew. Um, brew his own horrible beer at home. Ha- had to. He had to. Had no choice.
‘Cause you have to drink, right? Right. Probably. That’s, that’s a whole nother topic. We’ll g- we’ll come back to that. We’ll come back to that And, you know, we didn’t go on holiday that year. You know, um, looking back, no big deal, like, a, a c- a very normal occurrence, um, in terms of, like, no one, no one ended up on the street.
It was a middle-class problem. Um, no one died. No one starved to death. Um, so in some ways I’m a little bit embarrassed, um, that that affected me so much. Um, but as an impressionable sort of 10, 11-year-old child, I kind of picked up on my mother’s [00:05:00] anxiety, and I kind of got the idea that ultimately if you can’t keep up the mortgage payments, you know, y- you- the, the bank can put you out on the street.
And so that just carried with me for the rest of my life. And so that’s, that’s an example of how a childhood experience, um, can just feel very visceral and very raw and very real for a child, and can then subsequently stay with that person and kind of influence how they behave around money for the rest of their life.
And so, uh, I think, you know, a good place to start for you, Arlina, is kind of look back, and can you think of one, two, um, particular instances around money, experiences around money, surprises around money or, you know, the household finances? Um, can you think of any of those sort of events [00:06:00] that left a mark on you and could, um, you know, could have carried on and influence your subsequent, um, decision-making and, and your belief system?
Absolutely. Um, before I answer that, could I have you tip your camera? ‘Cause I’m, I’m… It’s cutting off, uh, most of your head. Yeah. Sorry. Perfect. Perfect. So the funny, the funny thing is that, so I’ve been in therapy for, like, 30 years, so- 30 years. Wow. Well, yeah. So I started going to therapy probably right after I got sober.
Um, and so I, it, this month it’ll be 32 years that I’ve been sober, so I almost, I, so I went to therapy, like, almost right from the beginning, and, and plus I did, like, 12-step stuff, so that’s a process of self-reflection. And so I can name probably a dozen situations where, um, [00:07:00] money directly affected my sense of self-esteem and my personal security, my self-worth.
Um- Yeah … I was just, uh… Something kind of new came up. It wasn’t really new, but, um, one instance was my dad was an engineer, right? He, he was- Okay … and he was a product of the Depression, so he was extremely frugal. Like, really- Mm … really frugal. And my parents had divorced, and my dad lived in another town, not, not that far away.
He was probably only, like, 15, 20 minutes away. And so this is a period of time when I was, uh, playing softball, and I needed… And the park where we practiced was kind of far away to walk. And so I would call my dad and ask him for a ride. And so he’d go from this town called Cupertino. Everybody knows Cupertino ’cause that’s where Apple was founded.
Oh, okay. But he, he would drive from [00:08:00] Cupertino to Sunnyvale and, um, pick me up from my mom’s house, and then take me to the park, and then drive home. Well, after doing this a few times, and he didn’t stay and watch practice or anything, um, after doing this a few times, he said, “Hey.” This is, like, basically he was saying it was a problem for me, and his justification was that he calculated how much it cost in gas to do the round trip, and it was, I remember it being, like, $1.50 or something like that.
And- Wow … that was hi- he, he, he was basically saying it was too much That it was like an inconvenience and that it was too much money. And that, and then I, when I lived with him in high school, I mean that, that alone, like I didn’t realize the impact that it had on me, but it was like I’m not worth $1.50 or whatever it was.
Wow. And this was a long time ago. Um, what, what, [00:09:00] what age, I was gonna ask, what age were you then? Um, so I was probably in junior high, so probably between 12 and 14, something like that. Mm. Yeah. And I was desperate to play softball because I, you know, I struggled with making friends and things like that, so it was really important to me to try to do this thing.
I was like trying to… This is a- another side of it where I was like trying to prove my worth through actions basically, trying to… Anyway, um, and so- By being good at softball. Yeah. Yeah, going to practice- Yeah … and, and all that stuff. By the way, I was terrible at it ’cause I had never, well my, my dad wasn’t a sports guy, so it wasn’t like, you know, he had, you know, encouraged me to play young.
Like most of the girls I was playing with started really young, like T-ball. So anyway, that was a whole separate thing. But yeah, it was basically, like, it was an inconvenience and it cost too much money. And that was sort of the, um, an [00:10:00] experience that was repeated in a variety of situations that were- Okay
y- later, later in high school, like I made drill team, and they didn’t wanna pay for the uniforms, and so I had to drop out of that. So that was another thing that I was, like, really- Oh, wow. Yeah. I was really hanging my hopes on this popularity thing, like being a cheerleader, and they were like, “Nope.” And that’s because your parents wouldn’t buy a ch- the cheerleader’s uniform?
Yeah. They were… To be fair, they were actually very expensive, but there were fundraisers and, and all this stuff, and their argument was it… I knew it was because of the money because I had so many instances of like, “No, that’s too much money. We can’t do that. We’re…” You know, the repeated message of, “We don’t have enough money”- Right
uh, was repeated. But in that case, when I was in high school, I was struggling with my grades. They were like, “Your grades aren’t good enough, so if you do this cheerleading…” But they didn’t realize that was my only [00:11:00] incentive to do well in school. Right. So- Right, right, right, right … but I knew it was about the money, and they sort of blamed me that it was for the grades, but…
So anyway, it was- Wow … super traumatic for me. It was so traumatic- Yeah … for me in high school. Like, not feeling good enough, coming from the wrong side of the tracks, going to this school in Cupertino where all the girls were wearing really expensive clothes all the time and- I was gonna say, so this w- this, this is California.
This is affluent, uh, an affluent town. Yeah, yeah. The… You know, these kids, their parents were all in technology. My dad worked for the government. Um- Right … a- and so, yeah, money was an issue. I was from the wrong side of the tracks, so money my whole life had always been an issue. Yeah. A- and it’s, it’s almost that, um, yeah, the, those, those dots, you can see those dots get joined between the lack of money and the lack of ability to [00:12:00] integrate into the tribe, you know, into the, into the peer group- Yeah
and the lack of ability to, like, demonstrate your value to your peers- Yeah … uh, and your, you know, and, and the, and your peer set. And- You know, people underestimate, like, just how, like, group-ish we are. You know, humans are just, like, humans for, for all of evolutionary history, uh, if you didn’t fit in with the tribe, you were kind…
That was a, that was a death sentence essentially. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so I think a lot of these things, um, you know, issues, worries about money are often worries about resources and w- worries about status. And I think it’s, it’s a little easier to be kinder on yourself when you think about we’re not just the product of, you know, the, the, the [00:13:00] ’70s, the ’80s, the ’90s.
We’ve got a set of DNA in us that runs back, you know, 100,000 years as, as sort of homo sapiens and the predecessors and then, you know, a billion years of that before as, um, mammals and reptiles. And, and essentially worries about money trigger the, you know, the lizard brain essentially. It, it’s, it’s fundamental to how we perceive our wellbeing in the world, and it’s how…
it’s fundamental to how we see our sort of position in a hierarchy, you know? And, and no one forms hierarchies quite as, um, adeptly as, you know, teenagers, you know, pre- in pre-high school and in high school, right? Yeah. Those are, like, the brutal times where you really just wanna fit in, and any, any indication that you’re not a part of [00:14:00] or that you’re different is super traumatic I think.
Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, I mean, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s awesome that you have taken the time through, you know, um, decades now of, of therapy to sort of join those dots. Yeah. But I think it’s, it’s really common that people just don’t do that, and they, they, they just, they feel the fear, they feel the anxiety, but they, they, they often don’t go back and look at the origin story.
And, and, and there is generally, uh, like you can trace a dotted line from childhood trauma to your reaction, to your results, to your priorities, to h- then, you know, what you choose to do in terms of like an undergrad degree, in terms of what you choose to do as a career, in terms of what you ch- you know, where you choose to live, h- um, how quickly you buy a house.[00:15:00]
You can kind of join the dots all the way back often to, you know, events like that. And so from my perspective, I mean, I just look… There’s, there’s two ways we react to our parents’ example generally. So either we unknowingly and unconsciously replicate what we observed them do. The other way, and that, that’s kind of the majority of cases, which is why, you know, you see s- you see such continuity in, you know, professional status, for example, betw- you know, from generation to generation.
Um, but the, but in a minority of cases, we’re so annoyed and irritated with our parents’ example that we just violently react the other way. Yeah, that’s what I did. So that’s what you did. Yeah, that’s what I [00:16:00] did. But yeah, and you know, I was lucky that I, you know, that God dropped me on the planet in Silicon Valley.
You know, I was able to, uh, get into tech, and I did tech sales for 10 years and made a bunch of money. And, um, I hate to say it, but COVID was actually really good for me in the sense that, um, I worked for a company that sold VPN, the virtualized private network, so- Oh, yeah … and I, I was, uh, my clients were in the, at the enterprise level, so virtually every customer I had had to make a purchase that year, and that was my biggest year ever.
I had never made so much money in my whole life. And, uh, I was able to quit tech after that, and that’s when I started my coaching business. And so- Fantastic … yeah, it gave me quite the runway. And it was so interesting though, because it was difficult to let go of the identity of an account executive, a Silicon Valley sale, tech sales rep.
And funny [00:17:00] enough, I sold security, which is sort of a, you know, theme of my life of needing security. Like, money to me feels like security- Mm … ’cause I felt so insecure when I was growing up. Mm. So, uh, but when, but I, it just didn’t, uh, align with my true self. I felt like God didn’t put me on this planet to sell software.
Like, I really wanted to do something that had heart and meaning. But it’s been a- It’s a struggle … yeah, it, but it’s been a struggle for me, like, on an emotional level. Like, it has really challenged my security because I am very aware that I’m so tied to, uh, the money, my ability to generate income, to my self-worth.
And as a coach myself, you know how it goes. Like, you get a bunch of clients, and then people cycle out, and then you get more clients, and people cycle out. So it’s like a roller coaster. Yes. So when I’m on the dip and people have cycled out and I need to, [00:18:00] like, go back to marketing and getting new clients and things like that, it does a real number on my sense of self-worth because of the money.
Mm. And I would imagine- And, and- … you probably see that a lot in the people that you work with- Mm … that when the money’s down, their self-esteem goes down, too Yeah, that’s, that’s true. The, the other thing I notice is that if you’re wired for financial anxiety, you feel any form of, um, anxiety or worry or knockback, you, you kind of tend to obsess on the financial implications of it.
So for example, if I’m ill, I worry more about money. If I’m tired, I worry more about money. I worry more about money in the winter than I do in the summer because of the seasonal affective disorder. And so [00:19:00] when I’m worrying about money, the first thing I do is just I, I ask myself, like, “Did I sleep enough last night?”
You know? Um, um, um, how, how well am I? You know. Um, because if you’re wired for the financial anxiety, it’s not just money worries that trigger it, funnily enough. That makes so much sense. So it’s like, so it’s, um… I love n- neuroscience and, and learning about how, like, w- how, as we grow up, the experiences that we have literally wire our brains in a certain way.
Yeah. So it makes perfect sense to me what you’re saying, that if I have financial insecurities tied to my self-worth when I’m young, that’s how my brain is wired, so any kind of stress triggers, that’s a trigger for that process. Is that what I’m understanding? Yeah. So- Yeah … I mean, I, I love that you’re talking the language of sort [00:20:00] of, um, you know, neural pathways and thought patterns.
Okay? Because essentially, that’s, that’s the missing link between, um, you know, addiction and other forms of, um, uh, accelerated learning or motivated learning. So essentially, um, the brain, a pathway in the brain is, is the f- is originally like if you l- imagine a path in the Amazon, okay? You have to… It’s hard to move ac- along the path ’cause there’s, there’s so much obstruction, and so you have to sort of hack your way through it.
So that’s, the first time you have a thought pattern- Mm-hmm … it’s like going through virgin forest. The more that you walk along the path, the more that you have those repetitive thought patterns, so for example, f- um, those pattern- those, those thought patterns about alcohol or those thought patterns about money worries, what you’re doing is you’re clearing a path [00:21:00] in the brain.
You’re clearing a path in the jungle, and the more that you go along that path, the, the, the quicker the traffic moves on that path. And so, um, these, these thought patterns, if repeated enough, get, get kind of wired in. Yeah, they really do. That makes a lot of sense. I, I’ve interviewed lots of people who, um, uh, like people who use psychedelic-assisted therapies, and they talk about snow on a mountain.
And as you go down the mountain on a sled, it, like, creates a groove. And as you do it over and over again, it, like, becomes deeper and deeper till it’s very difficult to break out of those grooves. And, um, they say that, like, psychedelic therapy is like a fresh coat of snow so you can, you know, um, create new pathways.
So what are… I feel like everyone’s pretty clear. It’s like, oh, okay, yeah, I have [00:22:00] issues with money. Like you were saying, I sort of fall into that same category that you were talking about. Like, I literally have no debt except for my house. And, um, there’s real- I really have no reason, I have no reason to be so stressed out.
And but you’re right. Every time I get worried, it goes… my brain goes right back to the financial worries. So maybe we can sort of… Is there anything else we need to know about that, or can we transition to, like, now that we know what the problem is, like, how do we go about, um, I hate to say fixing it, but what are some of the practices to alter those- Yeah, yeah
kind of financial worries? Yeah, yeah. But, um, and essentially, you can’t fix something until you’re aware of it. So, so awareness is always, like, the first step. And so again, I, I mean, I tried for many years to solve my money worries by, [00:23:00] you know, getting out of debt. You know? So I, I cleared my… I remember clearing…
I remember paying my mortgage off when I was 33. That’s wild. And, and I’d fantas- you know, all, all through… You know, ever since I, you know, ever since I graduated, I just fantasized about having, like, a, a little house that where you paid off the mortgage. And it was just so disappointing. Like, I mean, it felt good that day, but, like, the money worries didn’t, didn’t go.
Oh, so- The money worries didn’t go. Yeah. And you didn’t get the sense of fulfillment or contentment that you were expecting? I, I, you know, I was hoping to get a deep, deep-seated sense of, um, this is my financial fortress, right? Uh, this is my safe place. This … I will always be okay. That’s what I was hoping for.
Now, what I actually got was, okay, it felt [00:24:00] nice on the day that I, that I paid it off, and it, you know, and the day after perhaps. But, but, you know, you- we’re on this sort of hedonic treadmill. We expect to make progress. We ex- Yeah … we, we are wired for more. We are wired to pursue, and that’s generally, uh, like a healthy, adaptive response.
But when you have financial anxieties, it’s like, oh, okay, if I’m just, if I’m just chasing more money to try and get rid of the financial anxiety, maybe that’s not gonna cut it. But, but I, I had to sort of, uh, bang my head against that wall for, you know, another 10 years before I figured that out Yeah. Uh, that’s so funny, this idea of banging your head against the wall.
I feel like that’s something that, um, that a lot of people experience in recovery. They think, “Oh, I’m gonna get sober and every- life is gonna be good.” Yes. But then all of the underlying issues that made [00:25:00] somebody drink in the first place are actually still there, that’s unresolved. And now that we put it into terms of, um, neuroscience, it makes perfect sense.
Like, we’re literally wired a certain way, and so that’s why it continues to be a problem that just there is no… That does- having the money doesn’t solve the problem of the money worry. Yeah. A- and what you were saying about psychedelics, I mean, I haven’t done psychedelics, so I can’t claim to be an expert, but as I understand it, it’s essentially, um, you’re freeing things up.
Um, it’s- it’s enhancing the ease of neuroplasticity. Um, but when you’re sort of under, you know, undergoing those experiences, everything kind of frees up. Yeah. Um, and, and that’s why, that’s why… That’s probably why I’m afraid to… I probably wouldn’t do psychedelics. I’m worried like, oh my goodness, I would get too free, and I would see, [00:26:00] like, you know, I would, I would get changed too much.
Um, but that is essentially neuroplasticity is a thing. Um, recovery is a process. I mean, recovery from alcoholism is a process of neuroplasticity. It’s a process of letting the forest grow back, in the analogy that I use. So the, the, the, the, the sort of super highwa- the booze super highway through the Amazon needs to, like, it needs, um, abstinence, and it needs the, the, the, the vegetation to grow back and reclaim, and you f- for your brain to kind of return to factory settings.
Um, and so, um, though, how do… You know? So the question is, like, how do you, yeah, how do, how do you rewire your, um… How do you rewire your brain? And I mean, obviously anxiety is a signal. It’s a [00:27:00] signal to do what you can to get your, um, your, your, your money situation in order. So, um, people that have anxiety but have unopened bills, well, there’s a good reason for the anxiety.
Anxiety is a, is the thing that, is a signal saying, “Okay, this is, this probably is a problem. Uh, we do need to look at this. We do need to do something about it.” But then once you’ve opened those bills, and you’ve paid those bills, and you’re paying yourself first, and you’re saving, you know, something at the end of each month, and you’re paying into your 401, et cetera- And if you still have the financial anxieties then, then I, then I always say, “Well, you need to look somewhere other than money and somewhere other than personal finance.”
And so, so, you know, for example, you know, when I see a coaching client and if they seem particularly anxious, fretful, burnt out, run down, [00:28:00] any combination thereof, we’ll t- you know, I’ll- we’ll talk about their financial systems and their setup. But if everything … If they’ve got it all dialed in, the right place to be looking is, is no longer at, you know, their saving rate.
The, the right place to be looking is perhaps, like, a blood test, perhaps like, you know, get their hormones checked, and perhaps look at their physiology, um, as well as the money systems and as well as, like, the, the lifestyle that they’re lead- leading and how that might impinge and create anxiety. And so, you know, I
The way I, um … W- When my financial anxiety, um, was, was at its worst, I mean, I, I, I just, I just, through a process of trial and er- error, identified a bunch of things that helped [00:29:00] and, and, and, and iterated until I had a, like a toolkit. And so for me, like, this is, this is when I got into, like, running, cycling, uh, endurance sports.
It’s a great way of kind of beating yourself up. It’s, it’s a great way of changing your state. It’s a great way of, like, uh, accessing a sort of an almost meditative state when you’re, when you’re running, and I found that, I found that very soothing for financial anxiety. Um, and so, you know- Looking at… So awareness is step one.
Step two is looking at your financial, at your personal finances and your setup and your systems. But, but then you need to move on to other ways to alter your thought patterns and to alter your [00:30:00] physical and emotional state, and ways to recapture that feeling of agency and control and performance. And so that’s, that’s what I got from long distance running and cycling.
I got a sense of control back, ’cause I can’t control what happens in the stock market, I can’t control what happens in the economy, but I can control my run. I can control the effort I put in. And so for me, I found that a very good way to sort of regain agency or, or at least the sense of agency. Does that make sense?
Yeah. I think that is a really important distinction, is the sense of agency. Because, you know, truth be told, like, we… Uh, control is just an illusion, right? Yes. Yeah. And, um, m- but, um, so for those of us… Like, I, I do exercise. This idea of, like, running, listen, I hate cardio But what you’re really [00:31:00] talking about is, you know, first things first, right?
It’s like be here now, the awareness. Like, what is happening in my body? Like, what’s… You know, where am I? Uh, I feel like a lot of my anxiety is when I’m future tripping. Like, right here, right now, everything’s fine. Like, ev- literally everything is fine. And, um, you know, I did go through the process of, you know, working with a financial advisor who funnily enough says…
I don’t know if funnily enough is a word, but you know what I mean. Um, he says that most of the time when he works with people, he’s doing, like, counseling because money- Yes That’s what you need to do, right? Yes. Everyone’s so stressed out that they, like, need all this emotional support around finances. Uh, so, you know, you checked that box, the step two.
But the step three, um, y- I love that you mention, like, our physical wellbeing. I mean, lack of sleep triggers anxiety, poor nutrition- Yep … [00:32:00] triggers anxiety. Um, I’m at the, you know, mid-life age where things like hormones are really an issue, um, that can also trigger states of, uh, anxiety. So it’s import- I, I love that you’re including, you know, you know, do the practical things first, but your, your body is where our f- sense of felt emotion actually resides, in our body.
So, um, taking care of, you know, changing… You mentioned changing emotional state, and that is something that we can definitely be intentional about. Um, you mentioned a toolkit, so exercise is clearly one of those for you. Um, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Dr. Gabrielle Lyons. She’s a- Yeah … multi board-certified, uh, medical doctor, uh, very into fitness.
She said something that rocked my world, which is muscle contraction is medicine, [00:33:00] like- Mm … for your body. And so, uh, I do have a practice of five… Like, I do weights five days a week. I can’t stand cardio. I’m really trying to, trying to like cardio. But, um, what’s interesting is the neurochemicals that are released during exercise, the, your abil- your serotonin, your oxytocin.
There’s l- a multitude of, uh, neurotransmitters that are released during exercise. What are some of the other, um, tools that you have in your toolkit to help somebody with, uh, managing the anxiety around financial insecurities? Yeah. Well, just a quick point on, you, you mentioned that, you know, you do li- weights rather than cardio.
I, and I’m the same these days. So I have dialed up the, um, up the resistance training and dialed down, um, the sort of chronic cardio, the sort of, um, the, the, the, the, the [00:34:00] constant running. I mean, running, running is very so- running can be very soothing, um- Yeah … for some people. Um- Yeah … and so it, it had a place, you know, um, particularly when I, you know, when I was in my, when, when I was in my 30s and we had two new kids, uh, it was a very stressful time.
And so if I got the chance to get out of the house, I would go for a run, ’cause you, you kind of- … wanted, you wanted to change your state pretty quickly. But to your point, um, in many ways, resistance training is superior, um, for anxiety. Certainly for men, resistance training, um, tends to increase, like testosterone and, like you, you will have a greater sense of wellbeing, um, if you have, you know, somewhat higher, uh, or, or at least if you don’t, if you’re not- deficient in testosterone and you’re not deficient in dopamine, for example.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, uh, I’m all for, I’m [00:35:00] all for resistance training. Um, muscle is life. Um, muscle is like a glucose sink. Muscle improves insulin sensitivity. So I completely agree, uh, with all of that, and I’m not trying to push marathon running on, on everyone. Um- Man, running just hurts my… Uh, the only reason I run is if someone’s chasing me.
It just hurts my, hurts my body. Like if there’s a t- if there’s a tiger or something, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so but, but, you know, in terms… But once you start thinking, um, of anxiety as a, as a wellbeing, a fin- if, if you start thinking of financial anxiety as a wellbeing issue as much as it is a money issue, well, then that leads you to look, you know, at all of the sort of key pillars of health and wellbeing.
So the, the fundamental is, is sleep. Like, sleep is the [00:36:00] ultimate stress reliever. Uh, it’s the ultimate emotional stabilizer. It’s where you, it’s where you, you know, make those neurotransmitters. It’s the time when you make those. So sleep’s kind of like the bottom of the, the health pyramid. It’s the foundation of the health pyramid.
Um, as- assuming that, assuming… And this is all assuming that you’ve, you’ve removed the poison from your life, which- Right, right … which, which I had, which, which I ha- I had to do because obviously hangovers are obviously anxiety inducing. So I’m, I’m, I’m assuming that we, you know, uh- Right. Yeah … you’re obviously, uh, very well-versed in all of that.
So once the poison’s gone, it’s like sleep’s the base layer, then nutrition. And nu- and nutrition is… Uh, again, nutrition’s really interesting. Um, inflammation tends to be anxiety producing. And so if you’re eating inflammatory foods, um, [00:37:00] then, then you’re, you’re not helping, you’re not helping with the anxiety.
And so generally, ultra-processed foods are more inflammatory than the natural food that our body evolved with over thousands and thousand and thousands of years. So, you know, cut out the junk. Would… After you’ve kind of sorted out the sleep, you know, you would go to cut out the junk. The other, the other thing that’s really interesting is, um, you know, know if, if you’re struggling with financial anxiety, um, there are…
You, you know, you might have, um, magnesium deficiency. Um, magnesium, um, most- a lot of people are deficient in magnesium. We used to get it when we- Yeah … drank water fr- we used to get it from when we drank water from a well. Um, it was a sort of trace element in, in drinking water, but it’s… but not so much in, in proce- in, you [00:38:00] know, filtered, um, processed, uh, treated tap water.
So, um, I would say no… You know, don’t, don’t laugh at the idea of, like, trying magnesium supplementation as a, as a mitigant or an- as an antidote to anxiety. Magnesium and B vitamins, uh, if you’re deficient in those, you will feel more anxious. That’s wild. So yeah, isn’t that crazy? Like, um, the other day- Yeah
I, I literally was feeling anxious, and I went to my cupboard and I, uh, kind of tipped out the magnesium, uh, and the B vitamins and, um, banged it down and, you know. Was it placebo? Was it, was it the, the real deal? I don’t know. I’ll ta- if, if the, if the anxiety goes away, I’ll, I’ll take it. Yeah. Um, the other thing that I f- I personally use is L-theanine, um, which is the sort of active ingredient [00:39:00] in green tea.
So g- green tea is more calming than coffee, for example, because, um, much less caffeine and more L-theanine, which is, uh, inherently calming. And it’s like, yes, it’s a pill and I’m not encouraging people to pop pills necessarily. Um, but that is, um… that’s part of the, the sort of Huberman lab sleep stack- Yeah.
that, um, for good reason. Yeah. A good reason. So the, the Huberman lab sleep stack is, um, magnesium glycinate, uh, L-theanine, and apigenin That’s so funny that you say that. I t- I take all of those because of the Huberman Lab podcast. And, and so I al- you know, when people have financial anxiety, I will often show them the, the, the, the, the sleep toolkit, the human sleep toolkit, because it’s just- Wow
so fun- it’s so fundamental. Um, and then, you know, and then you have sort of social [00:40:00] tactics, which is, um, just identifying people that being in their presence soothes you. Um- Mm … so, you know, I mean, I rem- I, I remember my wife used to always be super, um, you know, she would get very stressed, but I always noticed when she came back from her sister’s, she would be, like, really, really zen.
And so, you know, eventually I’m like, “Maybe it’s time for you to go and see your sister. You haven’t seen her, haven’t seen her for a while.” Um, so- I thought you were gonna say the opposite. But no, I mean, you, you realize that, um, you know, social wellbeing is a thing. Mm. Um, that relationships are part of, you know, the anti-anxiety toolkit.
Yeah. Therapy is obviously, um, a big, big important [00:41:00] tool, um, in the, in the toolkit. Um, y- as, I mean, you would, yeah, a- as, as you would be- as, as you, as you know better than anyone. So I- It’s so funny. It’s so funny how like all the, um, the staples of self-care, you know, the journaling, talking to someone, community, awareness, these…
It, it’s so interesting, y- you know, basic sleep and s- you know, eating well. Everybody knows eat well, sleep well, connect with others. It’s like everybody knows what the toolkit is, and it’s so interesting how it affects literally every area of your life. Financial insecurity, relationships, um, you know, your health.
Like, it’s, it’s so interrelated and it’s, it’s always the same solutions, but so interesting how the anxiety will manifest in, in different areas. Yes. And, and [00:42:00] like as I said before, if you’re wired for financial anxiety, that is how you will experience a lack of wellbeing. You, you, you’ll think of it financially.
And so, you know, to your point ag- also about the financial advisor that said he spent most of his time counseling people, I get, I get that so often. So someone will come to me and they’ll be like, “I want to talk about my portfolio.” And I’m like, “Okay, we’ll talk about your portfolio.” And you realize that on some level it’s often because they don’t wanna sort of say, “I’m feeling anxious.”
Uh, they don’t wanna sort of say, um, they, they, they don’t want to, like, they don’t wanna lead with that, they don’t wanna verbalize that. That they feel some sort of like, you know, desire to cover that up. But it’s, it’s a more acceptable conversation for someone that’s sort of suppressing that to [00:43:00] talk about financial and investment, um decisions th- than it is to actually look at the, the underlying cause of the financial anxiety.
So I, I often say you have the presenting problem, and then you have the underlying problem. The, the real problem. That is so interesting. Yeah. People think that, like, with alcoholism or drug addiction it’s about the drugs and alcohol. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with- Mm … like what is compelling people to wanna use drugs and alcohol.
So it makes sense that, you know, people with financial insecurities, um, want to feel like they have control over that, and they wanna address it and take responsibility. Because it’s, uh, it’s a little deceiving because we actually do need to take care of that. Like we’ve all… I think just about everybody has [00:44:00] had those moments when they didn’t have enough money and suffered because of it or made a mistake.
I remember when I was young and not, uh, very good at balancing my checkbook, I remember one time I miscalculated something and like five checks bounced all at the same time, and I was already strapped for cash and then had like, like the bank fees on top of every single… It was like $25 for every bounced check or something.
And- Mm … the anxiety that was created around that made me think, “I need to solve the mo- Like if I solve the money problem, then I’ll be okay.” Mm. And, and so- And so money problems… Yeah. A- and s- and was that what, what steered you into tech sales? It’s like, “That’s how I make money. That’s how I, that’s how I put, that’s how I put those ghosts to bed.”
[00:45:00] Yeah. Yeah, I mean it was, um, listen, ever since I was like 12 or 13 years old, I, I ha- was the only girl in my neighborhood with a paper route. I always had like multiple jobs. Oh. I, my whole life I’ve had at least two jobs. I don’t know what it is about me, I can’t do just one thing. And it- Wow … but you know, a- after this conversation it’s like, oh, well it totally makes sense.
When I have financial insecurity, my brain says the solution is to just work harder, work more, make more money. Like, and then- Mm … in my, in my mind, maybe it’s below consciousness, it’s like if I have the money, then I’ll be okay. Hm. I, I once saw this documentary about this Arab sheik, like an oil, an oil sheik, and it showed you his
It showed, first it showed you his palaces, and then it showed you his getaway yacht. And on the getaway it’s this big [00:46:00] white, you know, blingy yacht thing. And on there they showed you his, like gun cabinet, his gun room in the, in the yacht. And I’m like, “Oh, wow,” like that guy’s a billionaire and he’s terrified.
Terrified. And so there’s, here’s me trying to, here’s little old me trying to assuage my financial anxiety by paying off my mortgage, and I’m watching this and I’m like, “Oh, he’s got a yacht, and he’s got a palace, and he’s still terrified.” Yeah. Yeah, there’s a, there was a guy, uh, Andrew Wilkinson. He’s a billionaire and he worked with guys like
Do you know who he is? Uh, he, he worked- Yes … with guys like … Yeah, yeah, he’s a- Yes … is he a hedge fund guy now? I’m not sure what he does. But anyway, he wrote a book called Never Enough. Yes. And he studied a bunch of billionaires, and they were all so afraid. Like, [00:47:00] money doesn’t solve the fear problem For any of these guys.
It was, it was never enough. So it doesn’t matter how much you actually have, that, that doesn’t actually solve the, the real problem. And the real problem is- And, and- It sounds like it’s rooted in, it’s rooted in self-care first, and trust, and even surrender maybe. Yeah. I, I mean, it’s, it’s rooted in… It’s often rooted in childhood experiences and, and trauma.
Um, you know, to what extent can we change that? Well, that’s very, that’s very contextual. That, that depends on the individual and it depends… That, there’s, that’s a m- a mixture of like, um, nature and nurture to the extent to which that can be, um, mitigated. I mean, I, I’ve kind of accepted that I’ll never, I’ll never quite lose it.
You know? I will [00:48:00] never quite- Yeah … lose the potential for, for that. You know, I suspect that when I’m, you know, when I’m 90 and I know that I’ve got, you know, three days to live, I’ll still be thinking about, you know, um, th- you know, the, the next, the l- the next electricity bill that I’m not even gonna be a- I’m not gonna be around to need to pay.
Yeah. I think that’s when you realize, “Oh, all that worrying was for nothing.” All that… Wouldn’t it… Yeah. I mean, wouldn’t it be just a gift if you could just go back, uh, t- travel back in time and tell your younger self like not to worry. Yeah. It’s gonna be okay. It’s just gonna be okay. You know? Yeah. Yeah.
That, but that’s just like, um, that like, yeah, telling someone, “Just don’t worry,” is like saying, “Well, just don’t drink.” Do you know what I mean? Like, that’s not helpful. That’s not helpful. Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like all these self-care practices will help reduce that anxiety. I’m so [00:49:00] curious ’cause I often hear people talking…
What do you say to people who are like, “Oh, but it’s because of this anxiety,” like I- they don’t want to solve the anxiety because they feel that is the fuel that fuels their ambition so that they can make more money. Do you s- get that fear from people who are like, “Oh, I don’t wanna, I don’t want to solve this anxiety ’cause that’s what makes me successful”?
And it, fear is the most powerful motivator. So s- fear, um, fear drives… Well, it, it, it affects different people in different ways because, um, this, this- it’s not just fight or flight, it’s freeze, fight or flight. So when people are really scared, they will either freeze and do nothing and stop making decisions, um, or they’ll sort of run away and, and like just shy away from, for example, the stock market.
So I don’t, I can’t put [00:50:00] any money in the stock market, I’m just gonna run away from it, and I’m just gonna put my money in like a savings account. Um, so that’s, that’s kind of a financial example of flight. Um, but what you’re talking about is the fight response. Um, and so yeah, I will… I’ll, I’ll work harder in my b- I’ll outwork every- everyone in the office.
I’ll work harder on my business. That is essentially, um, one way that, that some people react to that fear. They, they, they, they fight. They go on the offensive, and it’s an incredibly powerful motivator. Um, what I would say though is, for me, I, I channeled fear as my motivator. I channeled it when I was working long hours in, in corporate finance, but it…
but for me, it did t- it took a toll in the end. So- Yeah … yes, the, the fear would get me up early in the morning, and it would keep me working late at night, but there’s an [00:51:00] accumulated debt, a f- a physical debt that you’re, you’re paying there. And so, um, I mean, uh, I, I kind of, um… yeah, you look at some of the sort of the, the, the, the, the ultimate, um, sort of workaholics who- Mm
can just do it and do it and do it until they’re 80. Great. Good for those guys, those guys and girls, but for me, the fear had a shelf life. The fear couldn’t… was not a sustainable- No … um, form of motivation That’s kind of what leads to burnout in my mind. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so I knew I, you know, I was … I knew I was going into sort of burnout.
I knew I was going into health overdraft in my, in my, in my mid-40s. And so yeah, I, I, I l- I’ve l- learnt a lot about burnout ever since, um, because, [00:52:00] um … And, and that’s why I say, you know, fear is a good motivator, but you’ll pay a price for it. Definitely. Yeah. So the antidote is, you know, my mind th- things kind of come down to love or fear, and love is, like, very creative.
It’s not … It’s abundance mindset. So there is a way to operate from that place that’s still just as productive that does not lead to burnout. I, you know, I tried when I was working in corporate finance, I tried to find ways to join what I was doing to, like, a social good. Mm-hmm. You know, I tried to, I tried to tap into the love side of the equation, but unfortunately the fear side was- But that’s what you’re doing now though, isn’t it?
That’s what I’m doing now. Um- Yeah … that is what I’m doing now. Um, but, but that is w- that is why, you know, that is why I couldn’t stay doing what I was doing- Right … um, [00:53:00] for the long run. There was, there was t- it was too much fear, um, and it was, it was taking a toll and at some point you have to s- try and find a better form of motivation.
Yeah. I feel like one of the lessons that I’ve gotten over the years is about… You, you know, for me I was very controlling. I tried to control everything. For me, that was very fearful. It, but control is actually the shadow side of trust. And so a lesson that I seem to be repeating over and over again is about trust and surrender, right?
Like, I have my default factory setting, which is the financial insecurity. When that gets triggered, now it makes… Now it’s all coming together for me, right? Like, oh, now it all makes sense. You know, that’s how I’m wired, so it makes sense that when I’m, you know, um, triggered for physical reasons or emotional reasons, that I will go back to my, uh, my, uh, [00:54:00] fearful setting.
So it’s the freeze, flight, or fight. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, the, the idea of surrender is, that’s uncomfortable. That’s uncomfortable for someone suffering with financial anxiety and- Yeah … um, that’s, that’s, that’s almost the h- that’s almost the last lesson that- … that, that we learn.
I mean, in my case, right? Um, because you’re accepting… You know, I think to some extent, um, school does this. Like, work hard and you’ll get the results. Mm-hmm. And then, and then you become a sort of people like me, get into sort of self-help and self-development, et cetera. Yeah, yeah. And it’s all about extreme ownership and I will take agency and I will take responsibility.
Yeah, yeah. And I, I think it’s the, I think the acceptance of, you know, that it is, the control is an illusion and the surrender, that’s, that’s the last phase [00:55:00] I think Yeah. That, that really is. That’s a black belt level of recovery, is the Yes. But, and it, but it’s so, uh, to me the sur- just to… I, I feel like we have to wrap up in just a minute, but f- for me, the surrender piece is, um, taking responsibility for what I can, taking the actions that I can, but then l- kinda like letting go of outcomes and sort of being in the, like surrender to the present moment basically.
Yeah. So we’re not abdicating responsibility, but it’s sorta like do what you can, but then let it go. Yeah. And, and I, I mean, I try and just go back in, just sort of go back in history and just, just think about, you know, how people have lived just up until, you know, pretty recently. Um, like we didn’t have any, you know, we had no control.
Like you, you could, you could easily just be, you know, drafted, sent off to die in a [00:56:00] trench. Um- Yeah … you know, and, you know, maybe we will again. But, um, that, the, the, the period that we’ve just been through, if you like, sort of post-World War II, is a very unusual period if you look back at- Yeah … at like the longer- History, yeah
the longer th- a longer history. And so yeah, like in some ways we kinda lost sight of the f- of, of that, I think. We lost sight of- Yeah … h- uh, we, we, we kinda overestimated how much control we had. Yeah, very much so. Uh, listen, um, I, I really appreciate the, this conversation today. I think it’s gonna help a lot of people.
Certainly it’s, puts things into perspective for me and kinda reshifts my own perspective, so I really appreciate that. How can people get ahold of you if they’re interested in working with you? Uh, so I have a website, um, which is The Escape Artist. It’s www.theescapeartist.me. If you kind of go there, that’s my sort of [00:57:00] home base.
And I, I… You can, you can… If you go there, you can also find my Substack where I, I write about money, career change, uh, wellbeing, health, um, recovery sometimes as well. Um, so yeah, www.theescapeartist.me, and from there find my Substack. That’s awesome. I will leave links to the show notes in, at, uh, odatchat.com if you’re driving.
But Barney, it was such a pleasure hanging out with you again. Thank you so much for all your wisdom and all the work that you do. It’s real- it’s really important, uh, to have this conversation around money that nobody ever wants to talk about. Yeah. And yeah, it’s, it’s never enough. So, um- … ultimately, yeah, you’ve just gotta, you’ve just gotta look at it in a broader way and, and I think conversations like this are helpful for that, hopefully.
Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much for your [00:58:00] time. Thank you, Arlina. Really appreciate what you do.
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