Step 4 Uncensored: Sonia’s Searching and Fearless Moral Inventory

What Your Resentments Are Really Telling You

What if the thing you’ve been most afraid to look at is actually the key to setting yourself free?

That’s the question at the heart of Step 4 — and it’s exactly why so many people bail right before they get to it. In this episode, Sonia Kahlon, co-founder of Sisters in Sobriety, sits down with me to do something vulnerable and rare: walk through her real, out-loud moral inventory, resentment by resentment.

Sonia came into this step convinced she didn’t have that many resentments. She describes herself as “not a very angry person.” But within minutes of sitting down with the 12 and 12, she was confronted with the concept of the “emotional deformity” — and found that it was uncomfortably accurate. The drinking wasn’t random. It was a misdirected instinct to self-soothe. And behind it? Years of unfelt feelings buried so deep she didn’t know they were there.

Your Resentments Are Not a Sign of Failure

One of the most powerful moments in this conversation is when Sonia admits she equated having resentments with not being healed. If she still felt anger toward her ex after four years, what did that say about her progress? But here’s the truth the fourth step reveals: resentments don’t mean you’re broken. They mean something real happened to you and you haven’t had the tools to process it — until now. As I told Sonia, “Having a resentment doesn’t mean you’re not healed. It means it’s still affecting you.”

Finding Your Part — Without Taking the Blame

The fear most people carry into Step 4 is that they’ll be asked to excuse the inexcusable. Sonia was no different. She worried the whole process was going to be, “What did you do?” when the truth was that she was a child, or the one who got lied to, or the one who got left. What surprised her was that the literature actually made room for that. Other people can be wrong. Other people can cause real damage. Step 4 only asks: what was your part? What beliefs did you walk away with? What patterns did you repeat? And sometimes — often — the answer is simply: I believed the lie. I thought I deserved it.

“When you let go of what’s not yours, you can bear the weight of what is.”

The Gifts Hidden in the Hardest Things

By the time we got to Sonia’s resentment about her ex-husband, something had shifted. She could see how the painful experiences with her parents had made her more sensitive and compassionate. How losing her brother and then her marriage had made her more resilient and self-sufficient. The worst things that happened to her had also made her who she is — and for the first time, she was naming that specifically.

Recovery gives us a process for self-examination that most people never get. Step 4 is where the real treasure is. And Sonia found it.

Action Items

• Make a list of your resentments, starting with the people closest to you
• For each resentment, identify: the cause, how you were affected, and what belief about yourself it reinforced
• Ask yourself: “Where did I believe the lie?” That is often your most powerful “part”
• Notice the difference between an appropriate emotional response and self-judgment about having that response
• Look for the assets that came out of each painful experience — resilience, compassion, independence — and name them specifically
• Start a separate list for anything that surfaces that might belong on a future amends list (Step 9 territory)
• Consider pairing your Step 4 work with a therapist who can help you process what comes up

Resources Mentioned

• 12-Step for Skeptics by Arlina Allen — odaatchat.com
• A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle
• The 12 and 12 (Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions)
• Alcoholics Anonymous (“The Big Book”), page 63
• Sonia Kahlon — sistersinsobriety.substack.com

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Transcript:

Sonia Step 4 Speaker

[00:00:00] Sonia, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me. I’m excited. Step four. Step four. You made it to step four. Can I tell you that so many people do steps one, two, and three and then bail? I see why. This was a- Do you? … beast. Tell me. This was a beast. It was like from the second I started, I started with the 12 and 12, like I was like, “Oh, we’re getting into it now.”

Like- This is the good stuff … it went from like, “Hey,” just like, “I know you might feel a little weird about God, just give it a chance,” you know? Sure. And it was like, “Okay, okay,” um, to like, “What do you mean I have an emotional deformity? I may have known that all along, but now you want me to talk about it?”

Like, emotional deformity? Is that, is that in the literature? Yes, it sure is. And you know what? What? It’s not wrong, okay? I know. And like, I mean, the [00:01:00] wording is a little aggressive, but it’s not wrong. And the idea that- … I, like I’ve always known this about my drinking, and I’ve never been able to say it, that it was like, like misdirected instinct.

Or like- Yeah … what do they call it? Instinct on rampage. And so it was like, yeah, the instinct was there to like calm the anxiety, right? Yeah. Like it wasn’t an inappropriate instinct. Like when you’re feeling anxiety, you try to like, you know, you try s- you should be able to self-soothe, and instead I was soothing with like alcohol.

But it really, this one, it took me days to work on because it was so like deep for me. Yeah. That’s good. Hey, uh, your audio is a little low. I don’t know if getting close to here. I, I noticed that when I was … Sorry. I was noticing that when I was editing the last episode that you were on. How’s this? Is this better or no?

Yeah, that’s good. Okay. Okay, so we’re on step four, which is making, made a searching and [00:02:00] fearless moral inventory of ourselves. So the homework, um, as prescribed in the 12-step guide for 12-step addicts- Yeah … by my sponsor, was to read step four in the 12 and 12, then read Alcoholics Anonymous page 63, the last paragraph that begins with, “Next we launched.

We launched out.” So, um, yeah, a lot of people are really afraid of step four. I try to tell people, “Hey, you know what? This is your license to bitch.” Like, you get to- Yeah You have a ca- captive audience in me as a, you know, or your sponsor, and they are there to listen to all your grievances basically. But it is painful to have to, like think about it, remember specifically- Mm

what you were resentful about, how it was affected in you. It is kinda painful to have to rehash that. Did you have that [00:03:00] experience? For sure. Like, I think that there, like also is this tendency, like maybe not even in recovery, but like, you know, just in general with like therapy, wellness, that like I’m okay, like now.

Like, I’ve done all this work. And so I think for me, like I, I even said this to you. We talked like a week before, um, I started this step, and I th- I was like, “You know, I don’t really have a lot of resentments.” Um, and I, I think of myself usually as a pretty, like, like a not very angry person, and I think it was tough for me to go back and, and say like, “Maybe I do have some resentments.”

And for some reason I equate- having resentments as not being healed. So if I have resentments towards my, like, ex-husband, that means I’m, like, not healed or I’m not healing, or I’m not doing well enough. But, but I don’t [00:04:00] think that’s, after doing this step, it’s like that’s not true because these things are still affecting me.

They’re just popping up in these other ways. So to, to not look and say, “No, I am a little angry and I am a little resentful about this,” it’s like that’s okay. That’s what I learned, I would say, is that like, yeah, ’cause these things keep popping up for me. Yeah. I mean, it does require a little bit of humility to, like, like we, to re- to just acknowledge the truth.

Like, yeah, my feelings were hurt. Mm. Nobody wants to admit that, that our feelings were hurt or that we haven’t been able to let something go. There’s like a l- like we shame ourselves about it. We have guilt about it. Mm. Like, I, I should be better than this- Yes … by now. I always say that, “I should be better.

I should be better,” or like I compare myself to other people that, like, you know, got over their divorce in, like, a year, and it’s, like, going strong on year four here, you know? Um, but I feel like that about a lot of things sometimes, that like I should be better or I [00:05:00] should, I shouldn’t be upset about this still.

And I think, yeah, to some extent, right, that’s true. Um, and to some extent, like I am healed. My o- my therapist always says, she’s like, “You’re so much more healed than you know.” Nice. Yeah. That I’m always, like, beating myself up. Like, oh, like I’m always like, “My ex is probably, like, married with a couple kids by, like by now,” and I’m still, like, getting in bed at least once a month crying about it, you know?

And it’s like- Wow. Yeah … that’s not so bad, you know? After 18 years, to cry once a month is, like, that’s okay. I think that is sort of the root of the human experience- Mm … is I don’t wanna have negative feelings. I don’t want to feel this way. Yeah. I don’t wanna feel. That’s the whole reason for drinking and using- Yeah

because we don’t wanna feel. That’s the purpose of addiction is distraction. It’s distraction from what we don’t wanna feel. Yeah, and that started so early for me that, like, feeling is [00:06:00] so, like I’m still learning. How to feel. Yeah. Yeah. It’s kinda crazy ’cause as a parent, you know- Mm-hmm … you, you’re trying to teach your kids not to be s- y- they, you have to try to ke- teach your kids how to live in the world.

Y- and then they grow up, and then they have to unlearn a lot of stuff. Like- Mm … I was taught not to behave in certain ways or not to feel my feelings. Like, I wasn’t safe to feel my feelings. I didn’t get a lot of validation and nurturing for my feelings. Uh, because of that- Mm … I was, I was, did a lot of, um, dissociation.

Like, I just buried a lot of stuff. But it doesn’t mean that it’s not there, and that’s what pops up. And people can identify with feeling triggered. Any time we have a feeling that’s disproportionate to a situation- Mm-hmm … it’s typically touching on a wound that hasn’t been healed yet, and we typically don’t know where these wounds [00:07:00] are because we’ve been so good at dissociating from them.

That’s what we sort of learn in childhood, “Don’t feel your feelings.” And then you grow up as an adult, and you’re like, “Oh, wait, I actually need my feelings. My feelings are what guide me.” Yeah. They’re, they’re the things that teach me, oh, if I’m paying attention to my feelings, I’m interacting with somebody who’s being rude or disrespectful or condescending.

If I’m in touch with my feelings, I can call it out in the moment. But, like, I used to say that my hurt button was on delayed reaction ’cause I would be in a situation, and I would tolerate inappropriate behavior. Yeah. And then I’d go away and stew on it, and it would, like, hurt my feelings later, and I’d be like, “Oh, I wish I would’ve said this.

I wish I would’ve said that.” Yeah. That is an example of a resentment, untr- unresolved resentment popping up later. I… Yeah, you’re so right that I, I still am on delay to some extent. Um, it takes me… Like, even we were just talking about, like, a situation, [00:08:00] like, in my life, and it’s like, yeah, it took, like, it took, like, a day to, like, acknowledge that, like, I had been lied to about something.

I was just like- Yeah … at first, I was just like, “Okay.” Like, just, “Okay.” And then, like, my, my reaction, my instinct is to be like, “I, I’m gonna have to put this away for a minute.” There. You know? And let it, like, marinate. And so… And I, I’m like that just in general, with like, “I n- I’m gonna need a minute.” Um, but yeah, but- Which is actually appropriate, right?

It’s better to pause when agitated than to instantly react. ‘Cause then you create more damage when you instantly react Yeah, you’re right, especially if it’s something where you feel, like, wronged, right? Like, you feel like somebody lied to you or you feel like you were betrayed. Yeah, it is probably better to have, like, just like a, a slight delay.

Yeah. It’s good to process with somebody before you respond. Mm-hmm So that’s, that’s appropriate, I, I think. Um, but, uh, yeah, what we’re really talking about is emotion [00:09:00] management. Like, why do we get triggered? Where are these things coming from? And so the inventory process is really about unpacking your baggage.

Everyone’s like, “Ugh, you got a lot of baggage,” whatever. Mm-hmm. Yeah, who doesn’t? Yeah By the time you’re, you know, whatever, you have a lot of baggage. So this is actually a very pragmatic, practical way to sort of unpack your baggage and be like, “What is my responsibility and what is not?” And we can let go…

Like, when you let go of what’s not yours, you can bear the weight of what is. Mm-hmm. If that makes sense. So- Yeah … uh, just a little disclaimer is that you and I are not going to be unpacking your most sensitive baggage. We’ll do that offline, but we will do it. Yeah. You came up with some very, um, I thought relatable resentments, and we’ll go over those together.

Was, uh… But first, before we dive into your actual [00:10:00] homework, was there anything about the readings that surprised you, was helpful, that you were resistant towards? Yeah. You know what surprised me is that I… And sometimes when I talk to other people about AA, even people, people who aren’t in AA, like, and I was not in AA, and so there’s always this idea, and I, like, when I think about this step and the amends step, it’s like, “Why do I have to take the blame for everything?”

You know? Um, and this like find, finding your fault in everything. And, and sometimes I think it’s almost to, like, I was under the impression it was almost to an unhealthy extent. Mm. And so what I realized from doing the reading was this one, this one is, this one way of accepting your part in it is I didn’t alter my own conduct and adjust myself serenely to self-discipline, right?

So [00:11:00] even if the damage was caused by others, my part is, like, to accept it, right? And to, like, accept the things I cannot change and the courage. You know, and, and I didn’t realize that, that AA or this step was going to, like, allow other people to be crazy- Oh … and still allow me to accept my part. I thought it was just gonna be like, “What did you do?”

And it’s like, “What did I do? I don’t know. I was a kid,” you know? And so that- Mm-hmm really comforting when I was doing it was, like, the whole time I was doing it, I, I thought, “Okay, I don’t have to, like, look at what I did wrong in every part of the situation.” I think there was one in the big book, it says, “People who wronged us were spiritually sick, and ask God to help us to show the same [00:12:00] tolerance/pity as to a sick friend.”

Like, how can I help them? And so, I mean, I did… When we go through the exercise, I did take responsibility for, like, a great deal of things. But I like just having that caveat, which is like, “Look, the- we’re not saying these people are perfect.” Um, because that’s what I always sort of worry about, is that you, like, let other people sorta, like, off the hook.

But it’s like, no, you let them off the hook in the sense that you need it to have your own peace. And that- Right … and to have, and to tolerate other people’s triggers or issues or whatever, and it’s not saying they don’t have them. It’s just saying, like, look, part of this is, like, how do I forgive or how do I move past this, like, resentment?

Um- Mm-hmm … and that was really not what I expected, and it came up a few times, and I was like, “Okay, okay, okay.” [00:13:00] Yeah. Yeah. It’s so interesting because we get really s- we, we identify who it is that we’re resentful at, get really specific about the cause, and then how we were affected, and then what our part is.

And what’s interesting is that this idea of black and white thinking, it’s either my fault or it’s their fault. Yes. Yep. Right? But what it’s saying is, what is my part? Part Part Yeah Where, what did I con- how did I contribute to this situation? Yep. So it’s not, it’s not, um, accepting full responsibility for everything that happened.

It’s what can I take responsibility for that was within my control? Yeah, because it wasn’t all within my control. Right. Right. All of it, yeah There are many times, yeah, there are many times when I’ve listened to inventories and I’m like, “You didn’t have a part here. Like you were a child- Mm … you were a victim.”

[00:14:00] It, you know- Yes … uh, maybe sometimes our part is revol- And, and I like finding like what can we own. It’s like there was stuff that happened to me when I was really young, and I came away with some beliefs about myself that were not actually true. Like that was my part. But I think having that cushion of like it’s not all…

We’re just looking for your part, not to place blame entirely. It made me more open- Yeah … to admitting my part. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t really like the word fault- Yeah … or blame. It’s like- It made me less defensive. I know, and rightly so, right? Because we’re so vulnerable. Like there is pain involved here. Yeah.

And so we need to be, you know, very careful about how we address this. Like set, what is, what are the rules for, what is the rules for engagement for this? Which is all [00:15:00] we are doing is breaking it down to what are the mechanics, what are the patterns, what are, what is, what is, um, what was my thinking, what was I afraid of, what were my beliefs, what, what actions did I take, what could I have done different?

Mm. You know, that’s kinda, because that’s where our power is. You know, the whole idea around the serenity prayer is help me accept the things I cannot change, and the courage to change the things I can. Yeah. And the courage to change the things I can is sort of like, “Oh, I didn’t know I had a different op- there was a different option.”

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a different way to respond. Like- There was a different, yeah … we are not often taught different ways of responding. Like we just typically ha- like we, those are, those are coping skills. Like I wasn’t taught a lot of coping skills. Were you? Yeah. No, none. Are you kidding?

Yeah So how could we have responded any better when [00:16:00] we- Yeah … didn’t have any skills? And so the point here is like, oh, here is a skill that I need to learn. That’s not a, that’s not something to be ashamed about or feel guilty about. It’s like, let’s look at this through the lens of compassion, which is, oh, I didn’t have any coping skills, so of course I behaved- Mm

certain ways. Like, if somebody hurt my feelings, I turned and, you know, I turned on the character assassination. Like, I would- Mm … go gossip and talk shit about people, ’cause I d- that was my only way of making myself feel better. Yeah. Right? That’s, that… But I don’t wanna be, I don’t wanna be like that. Yeah.

Like, that comes with a price tag. Yeah. So that’s kinda what this is, w- is we identify, we start to see patterns of behavior, we start to see that our self-esteem took hit after hit after hit- Yeah … that we had so many fears. And if a little girl came to you and said, “I was afraid,” [00:17:00] and, uh, you know, you don’t admonish that child for being afraid.

We go, “Oh, well, let’s look at the other options.” Yeah. And we coach them out of it. So this is kinda what this is. It’s like, what hurt us the most? What can we learn from it? How can we grow from it? What skills do we need to learn? And then life from there on out, in theory, gets better. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We learn to set boundaries.

We learn to make different choices. We r- learn to respond differently. I used to be so spicy that- Oh, God. Yeah, yeah, yeah … like when people made me mad, ooh, girl. Yeah, or if I got my feelings hurt or if I felt insecure, ooh, girl. Yeah. I was a, I was a, I had a very, I’m small, but mighty. Like- Ugh. But also, I did learn that from my parents.

My parents are very quick to go low, like very quick to, like, go to an insult. Oh. And very quick to, like, raise their voices. And so I, [00:18:00] I think that’s where I got it. And then once I saw it, I was like, it just like, I, it sounds weird, it just kinda started to go away, like- Yeah … layer by layer. Yeah. Some things, as soon as you see them, you can’t unsee them.

Yeah. And also without the alcohol, I think. There, for me, it’s a, there’s a huge difference between- how I take things, and I can see a dig now and I feel sorry for the person doing it. Oh, wow. Like, if someone’s taking a dig at me, I’m like, “Please.” You know what I mean? They’re like, “Oh, who hurt you?” Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it’s annoying to be, uh, in, trying to get into an argument with someone like me because I’m just like, “Oh, man.” Well, they say that defense is a form of attack. Yeah. So when you don’t give somebody… There’s a time to let things hang in the air like a lead balloon- Mm-hmm … and let [00:19:00] someone feel the weight of their own words.

Yeah. That can be really powerful. But it is hard to not, yeah, defend yourself. Um- But once you get used to it, it is like a really good feeling to just be like, “Hmm.” Yeah, defending myself was not my issue. It was like- … uh, d- you know, restraint of tongue and pen, as they say. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, for start, for me it was about the other end, like practicing restraint.

Yeah. Like taking a moment, go away and think about it, like what’s really being triggered in me, and how do I wanna respond, what boundaries do I need to set with myself or others? Yeah. Most of my boundaries are self boundaries. Like- Yes, this is true. Yeah. Like I had a, like, a overgiving is a- Hmm … thing for me.

Uh, I, and so I learned to not give beyond my ability to give without resentment, without incurring a resentment. Yeah. ‘Cause that was my other thing, like trading, like I was very, [00:20:00] um, keeping the scoreboard. Yeah. Like I’ll do this for you if you do this for me, and this is, I’ll be a good friend to you if you’re a good friend to me.

And so I think some- Yeah … of that’s appropriate, but you can absolutely take that too far. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. So anyway, um, you sent me a document, uh, that I wanted to read through together. Ooh. Um, so do you have it in front of you? I do. Okay. So, um, the first one on, y- I’ll just listen and you can go ahead and start sharing.

Okay. And then I’ll just sort of, um, we’ll, we’ll go, the first one that you have, we’ll go all the way through, and then we’ll talk about what your part is after you share them all. Yeah. Okay. Um, so my first one is, and I think this is probably the top of most people’s list- It is … uh, is their parents. Yep. Um, and my relationship with them is still really complicated and not great.

Um, and so just for like a little [00:21:00] background, like so culturally I’m Indian and I have an older brother. And so the older one, and the male too, is like a r- and light-skinned brother, and tall, and like, has a good nose, whatever Indian people think a good nose is. Um, and very bright brother. Um, I always felt like they were picking him over me.

Um- And would literally like, kinda like fe– I felt, I’m gonna say I felt, because really we don’t know like what I’m… I could be like, you know, reme- not remembering it wrong, but I, who knows what the real, like situation was. But I felt like I was sorta always being like cast aside in favor of him. And what made it worse is like he would do something, you know, what I thought was like crazy, and I would say, “Did you guys see that crazy thing this guy did?”

And they would say, “What are you talking about?” Um, and one of those- Gaslighting you. Yeah. One of those things was his [00:22:00] drinking, uh, because my brother’s also an alcoholic, um, was also in recovery for 10 years. And so it was always like, I’d be like, “Hey, I think Rob has a drinking problem,” and they’d be like, “Shut up.”

And so- Would they literally say that? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They’d be like, “Oh, you’re just trying to bring him down.” Like yeah. Okay. “You just want…” Yeah. Um, and also they were super, super critical of me growing up. Um, and those are like the criticisms that are sort of like still in my head.

Like things that we were talking about before we started recording which is like, I’m just like not good enough, right? Mm. I’m not smart enough. I’m not pretty enough. I’m not all of it, you know, all of it. I can’t even think of one thing that, that doesn’t apply. And so that, I have some resentment. I have resentment that like a lot of, you know, my time in therapy is spent just like unlearning some of these criticisms or trying to not have them be like the default.

[00:23:00] Um- in my head. And so, yeah. And so the next column, right, was how was I affected? And I would say, like, for all of mine, the main, um, effect was self-esteem, right? And insecurity- Mm-hmm … and self-worth. And I think one big thing that I’m starting, that’s starting to come out now for me is, like, I don’t feel like I belong anywhere.

Mm-hmm. And I don’t feel, like, lovable. I really don’t. Oh. And so I’m always afraid. And then a lot of this got reinforced with person number three on my list, which is my ex. And so, um, because we were together for so long, and when someone like that rejects you, like, you really do feel unlovable. You’re thinking, “Well, if that person can’t love me- Yeah

like, who can?” Um, so that, those were the first three columns. Sh- when do you wanna talk about the fourth column, my part? Okay. Well, let me, let me just summarize. [00:24:00] Yeah. Um, because I think the, the back, the back story, there’s, there’s kind of a couple of different schools of thought. Um, but let me just summarize.

So abandoning me and picking my brother. Yeah. That’s very specific. And being critical of you, so that’s also very specific. So if we just take the first one, abandoning you and picking your brother. Mm-hmm. So it affects your self-esteem, um, insecur- it creates insecurity, low self-worth. So your self-esteem, your personal relationship, your, uh, emotional security.

Mm-hmm. So, like, this is all your identity, belonging, being lovable. And by the way, my heart goes out to you ’cause those are- Mm … like, the most painful, long-lasting, deep-running wells that we, um, experience- Mm-hmm … in, in the, when your parents are treating you in, in that kind of a way. And, um, so and in your [00:25:00] part you have, uh, what am, what is my part?

So let’s just take these one at a time. So the first one you have lack of empathy for how they were raised. You … So, um- Abandoning you and picking your brother, I don’t believe that you had a part in that. It- No … you had no control over whether they picked you or not, right? And- Right … yeah. And so I appreciate this idea of, you know, I’m mad at them.

Maybe I’m mad at them because I don’t have empathy for them. Um, that’s, that’s pretty advanced, I would say. Um, lack of understanding of cultural norms. I think you’re pretty clear on the cultural norms. Yeah. I mean, at the time. I guess what I’m saying is at the time that these things were happening, or maybe [00:26:00] even shortly after, um, or maybe even just until recently, I d- I wasn’t, I didn’t have a lot of empathy, um, for how- For them

yeah. And I think now It, I guess my part as in, um, how can I start to move on from this, one way maybe I was thinking was to have some empathy for, like, look, they didn’t have the skills. Um, or they weren’t raised, you know, to treat the younger girl in a family in a certain way, or that type of thing, I guess.

Yeah, that’s, that’s fair. Like, you’re making peace. Yeah. You’re making peace with that. Yeah, I don’t know how else to make peace with it. Yeah. Well, I think it’s fair to acknowledge the truth, which is that they hurt you. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of this is let’s validate and nurture our own feelings. Maybe some of our part is [00:27:00] that we believed that they were right.

Like- Ooh … we develop, we develop beliefs about ourselves. Like, “Maybe I’m not worthy of love. Maybe I’m not…” Like, that’s- That’s allowed to be a part? I like that one. Yeah. But it’s so common. Like, I did it too. Like, I don’t know anybody who doesn’t… Like, you, as a child, you don’t really have the ability to sort of examine what your beliefs are.

But now that’s what we’re doing now. We’re saying, “Oh, look at that.” Mm. “I believed them. I felt like I…” You know, let’s acknowledge that you were experienced a lot of grief and sadness for not being adored, for not being supported. It’s like, uh, what, what is the opposite of critical is, like, loving and accepting and nurturing.

Mm-hmm. It’s like you needed that, and we have to just take a beat and go, “Wow, that poor little girl suffered so long believing that she deserved this for some [00:28:00] reason,” right? We develop beliefs about ourselves. And so this is your opportunity to be like, “Oh, that’s not actually true. I can now reframe my limiting beliefs so that they’re liberating.”

So every time that the thought comes up, “Oh, I’m not good enough, I’m not smart enough,” whatever it is, go, “Oh, that’s the hurt little girl talking.” Mm-hmm. “That’s not actually true.” Yeah, one of the things is like the, you’re lazy thing. And so I think that there is something also to sometimes you end up like marrying somebody or bringing people into your life, like, in, that treat you the same way that you were used to being treated.

Yeah. So like I married somebody who was like- Yeah … you could not rest ever. Yeah. And so now one thing is like learning how to like rest, and whenever I feel guilty I thi- I always think, I’m like, “That’s not your voice. Whose voice is that?” Like, that’s not your voice, you know? Mm-hmm. [00:29:00] Well, it’s interesting because there’s a few ideas about we recreate our family of origin as adults.

Yeah. Whatever we experience love to feel like as children, we, uh, we look for that as adults. So it is no surprise that you invited or were attracted to somebody who treated you that way, because that’s what love felt like to you when you were young. Mm-hmm. And so this is like, this is part of the unlearning.

This is our part, is like- Mm-hmm … oh, recognizing this is what love felt like to me, and now I c- this is the, where we take responsibility, right? It’s like, oh, I can be aware of my feelings. I can tune into them and start attracting people who, uh, love and support me in nurturing to, which you have done, right?

Mm-hmm. Which you have done now. Yeah. But this is, this is just our part. It’s like one of the parts is like, “Oh, I believed the lie.” Yeah. Yes, that’s [00:30:00] exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s not about fault, it’s not about… And- Right … and really, to really acknowledge the hurt and the pain that that poor little girl endured for so long.

Yeah. Right? And you did, and then you did develop some compensating skills. You became a high achiever. Mm-hmm. Right? So you, so a part of this is acknowledging your assets. And- Yeah … one of your assets that came from this experience is that you became a high achiever, you’re educated, you’re a good person.

Yeah. You’re sensitive to making other people feel, um, included and lovable. Mm-hmm. Like, you really strive to do that. I see that how you treat your niece, the friends that you have in your life. So you actually… Y- we can also just acknowledge- Mm … that you have some assets that was born out of, out of that.

Like, you’re uniquely sensitive. I never thought [00:31:00] about that. Yeah. Why would you? I’ve had a lot of therapy, and I’ve never thought about it. Ah. Like, I’ve never thought about, yeah, that those experiences… I know, I’ve always say, “Oh, they made me who I am,” but yeah, no, it’s true. They did. Yeah, but it’s important to acknowledge specifically how.

Yeah. Specifically, I’ve never done that. And so- Yeah Aw. So yeah, I would, there’s the, alcoholism isn’t a lesson I would’ve signed up for, but I’m so glad- Yeah … I got it. Just like we wouldn’t have signed up for critical, um, parents that abandoned us, but we did get a gift out of it. That’s a fact. Yeah, it’s true.

Oh, yeah, the specificity is like, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s really the, um, important ingredient. Yeah. And I really appreci- I just wanna say, I really wanna appreciate your ability to be able to acknowledge how you were hurt. It, self-validation, self-reflection, acknowledgement of what’s actually going on, that actually requires a [00:32:00] lot of courage.

So, um, and I appreciate your willingness to take a, uh, accountability. Mm. You know, when you said lack of empathy for how they were raised, lack of understanding, allowing myself to get angry and withdrawn. Um, yeah, those, those are all areas where you’re assuming responsibility that, you know, uh, allowing yourself to get angry and withdrawn.

Anger is a sign of an unmet need. Mm-hmm. So there was a, there was a need that wasn’t met there. So it’s appro- it was appropriate for you to feel anger. It was appropriate for you- Yeah … to withdraw. So I would, I, I might, you know, slide that one out of the your part, because you’re allowed to have those, those were actually appropriate feelings to the situation.

So I might, I might cross that one out. Okay, thank you. Yeah. Okay. Boom. That’s good, right? Yeah. Okay, so your next one. So a, a lot of times when I do [00:33:00] inventories with people, I will… If it’s, like, if you and I were just gonna go through the whole thing in one sitting, like, I’ve, I’ve sat through inventories that were, like, five hours long.

Oh my God. Yeah. And so, um, sometimes I would, um, pre-qualify by saying, “Don’t give me the backstory, otherwise we’ll never get through this.” Yeah. But I think it would, uh, because we’re only doing three- Okay … I think it’s appropriate to do the backstory. Is that okay? Yeah. So the next one- So your, so next one is your brother.

Yes. And so obviously part of the same dynamic that came, you know, with my parents, but he is not necessarily to blame for how my parents treated me. So we- Right … can, like, sort of separate out, like, it’s not his fault my parents liked him better or his- Okay, so you’re, you’re specifically honing in to his choices of behavior.

Yes. Okay, that’s fair. Yes. And so he has this tendency, and I think there’s probably people listening that have, um, a family member like this, that, like, [00:34:00] just pops in and out. Like, will pop in and has, like, uh… And then get angry about something, and then pop out for, like, five years. Huh. And then come back in, and then go back out.

And I didn’t realize probably until later on that part of it was because he was struggling with, like, alcohol and drugs. Okay. Um, and so, um, and that I don’t think I had… I mean, we’ll, we can go through this. But yeah, so he would, he would kind of cut off contact with me intermittently, and- So the specific cause was cutting off contact with you?

Yeah. And- Okay … and his reasoning was always, like, that I had done something crazy. Like- … it was always like, “You, you did this.” And I was like, “That was not… No.” That it, sometimes it was a lie, and sometimes it was, like, a based in the truth, but, like, no, that was not my intention type thing. And so it, it hurt a lot.

It hurt a lot. And so, like, I’ll give you the, the l- last time. So 2019, we had been really close for a few years, and he [00:35:00] relapsed after 10 years, and got a DUI, and the DUI, he had been out to dinner with his estranged wife, my sister-in-law, and she realized he had relapsed and he was drunk and he was getting in his car.

And she called me and said, “Your brother’s getting in his car. He’s drunk. What should I do?” And I was like, “Uh.” And in my head I was like, “Oh, I don’t want him to get a DUI.” So I was like, “Well, do you wanna just, like, follow him home or, like, try to see if he’ll…” So I’m saying all this, and she had hung up, and she had called the police, and so he got a DUI.

He- cut off contact with me this last time ’cause he said it was my fault that he got the DUI. Meanwhile, he’s in Toronto, I’m in New York, and he was like, “How could you do this to me?” Uh-huh. And I was like, “I didn’t have anything to do with your DUI.” Yeah. I didn’t… I, any- a- and honestly, even if I had told her to call the police, regardless, like I didn’t, [00:36:00] but I didn’t at all.

But, you know, you were drinking and driving, and you know, I… And yeah, I, it sucks that he got the DUI. I was very upset about it, but, but like I, you know, he was drinking and driving. But I did, he, his theory was that I got some sort of pleasure out of him getting this DUI, um, and some sort of like sick, uh, benefit, like that…

And, and he even said it. He said, “Oh, mom and dad will love you more now, won’t they?” And- Wow … yeah. He said some really, really mean things. And And I didn’t have anything to do with this DUI. Literally had nothing to do with it. She called me, I said, “I don’t know,” uh, you know, and that was it. Um, and so that really hurts, like, that he would think I got any sort of pleasure, um, out of that.

And so that was, like, say the last incident. And so yeah, I think because we would get close, like, I [00:37:00] would feel like, “Oh, I have a brother,” right? And so then when that would break apart, it would make me like, yeah, feel like I didn’t belong anywhere. Mm-hmm. I wasn’t lovable. Um, sup- it would make me super insecure.

Um, yeah, and affect my self-esteem. So similar, um, to the other ones. Um, and it just… And I think, too, it has made me, in general, like very fearful of getting close to people because- Hmm … yeah, ’cause I think they’re always just gonna go away. There’s gonna be a misunderstanding or something’s gonna happen and people are just gonna go away.

And so that, that is a, that’s a rough one because we, I would let him in, sort of. We would, like, be really- Yeah … close for a few years, and then something like s- this DUI thing was, like, really extreme. Um, but something like that would happen where he was like, “What the fuck are you talking about? I didn’t…

What do you mean I got you a DUI? What do you mean I was responsible for this?” Like, yeah. Yeah, that is insanity. But- Yeah. And so, so under, [00:38:00] um, how you were affected, so it’s self-esteem, it’s fear, insecurity, belonging, so a lot of, a lot of, um, repetitive, similar stuff from your mom. Um, it affected your emotional security, your personal relationship with him, so it was really, really affected you a lot.

Um, okay, so you have in your part, and, um, the top of the column it says, “Where had I been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking, frightened?” Uh, what did you list for that? So I do think that, um, because this is, like, a long-term relationship, I would say that, um, there was, like, a big period of time where he was struggling with addiction, and I was certainly not helping and if anything hurting by sort of- Like, I didn’t offer help.

I wasn’t very, like, sensitive to… I was reacting to his behavior. [00:39:00] And so he would be mean, and I would sort of be like, “You suck. You’re mean,” um, and not look deeper and think like, “This person is really struggling.” So e- this last time the DUI happened, I was sober. And so he was getting mad at me and getting mad at me, and I said like, “I- wherever you wanna go, like, for, um, like treatment, like, I will make sure you get there.

Like, whatever. You wanna be mad at me? You can be mad at me. You wanna…” Like, I really tried to take my, my own, like, hurt and my own like, “This fucking guy just blamed me for his DUI,” and I tried to take that out of it and, like, still be there for him. So I- it didn’t work, uh, but I’m still really proud of that.

But in the past I had been reactive more to him- Hmm … and to his like m- you know, any sort of negative behavior towards me. And so… And I would, um, I did gossip [00:40:00] kind of about him with my parents, um- After the DUI? No, no, no. Well, not once I got sober. Once I got sober- Oh … I was like, yeah. But um, no, no, not after the DUI, but when I was younger, like when I was like 13- Okay

14. He’s much older. Not much, six years. Yeah. So when, when he was struggling I would kind of gossip about like, you know, who he was dating or, like, what he was doing or, “He’s doing drugs.” Um, but I was young, like, in my defense, but I, I definitely think that that, like, set up some negative feelings for him.

Yeah. That’s right. That he would kind of hear his business getting around but, um, yeah, I think that was my, my part. So the first thing that’s coming up for me about your part is, um, you are not… You are ta- y- you are, you’re taking responsibility for things that are outside of this specific cause Hmm. Do you know what I mean?

So- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … you’re, so we’re talking [00:41:00] about a specific resentment, and then you go, so instead of addressing the specific resentment, you’re looking at your relationship as a whole- Yeah, yeah … and taking res- and taking responsibility for a whole bunch of things. Yeah. So I would say that, um, there’s a couple things that are coming up, which is assuming responsibility for things that are not yours.

Hmm. That might be your part. And self-abandonment. So your parents abandoned you. You were taught to abandon your feelings and yourself. And so in this relationship with your brother, you are abandoning yourself in order to take care of him. Like, your instinct of like, “Oh, let me pay for your rehab,” or, “Let me help you.”

Let me help you is, um, a sign of self-abandonment because you’re not addressing that he [00:42:00] actually hurt you. I think what, what, uh, how I look at it is that when someone is in such a dark place, is that really the right time to address how they’ve hurt me? Fair. Yeah. But it’s not about what am I addressing with him, it’s how am I treating myself in this- Hmm

situation, right? So if he gets a DUI, he calls you and blames you, you know, another option is to be like, “Wow, I actually am not responsible for you getting your DUI. I’m so sad to hear that you think that… I’m so ha- sad to hear that you’re blaming me. You know, m- maybe- Yeah … maybe, um, it’s, it’s fair that we don’t speak for a little while until you get help,” you know?

Like s- Yeah … it, the, y- it’s this, uh, you know, we, [00:43:00] we want… Our family is tricky because, um, help is a polite form of control as they say, right? Hmm. So trying to control the situation so that you can still have a brother- Yeah … right? Like, it’s- Yeah … it’s so painful. It’s like, “Oh, it’s so painful that you’re blaming me for this.

I don’t actually have a p- I, I don’t, I am not actually responsible. I did not make the choice for you to drink. I did not make the choice for you to get in your car and drive.” Yeah. “I was not, I did not make any calls, so I am actually not… I don’t have a part in this, but what makes me sad- Hmm … is that you’re cutting me out and holding me responsible for something that I had no control over.

Because if I did have control, you wouldn’t have done any of that shit, but I don’t have any control, so you can’t blame me.” Yeah. I don’t know. These are just kinda ideas that come up. But, um, y- No, that’s- It’s also, again, this idea of, um, what meaning did you assign [00:44:00] to yourself in the face of this blame, which is like, “Oh, I must be wrong.

I must be- Hmm … it must be my fault,” or, “I should have done something. It was my responsibility to do something different.” I did feel like before that day, I had not known he had relapsed, and I think he had probably relapsed at least a few weeks, if not, like, a couple of months before that day. Yeah. And I felt really guilty for missing that.

I felt really guilty that I missed it So that’s, um, that’s assuming responsibility for something that you have no control over Mm. A lot of this is so interesting. It’s about what’s appropriate responsibility and what’s not, what’s your responsibility, what is not. Yeah. And so often in families, we assume responsibility for others, and we don’t take responsibility for ourselves.

Yeah. It’s- Yeah … fam- families are messy Totally messy And, and it’s so [00:45:00] confusing ’cause there’s all this, especially if you have a culture of we’re supposed to be taking care of each other, you know, being there for each other Mm. Yeah, it gets, it gets messy. What is… So the, the question always comes back to what was my responsibility and what do I need to let go of?

Mm. And, you know, for you, maybe letting go of the idea that you were, that you played a part in his decisions. You know- Mm … you, you don’t really have a part Yeah, that’s true And, you know, taking responsibility for ourselves often looks like setting boundaries. Yeah. Like, if he… Did he ask you for help? No. So it’s really not your place to give it if nobody asks for it.

Yeah, I know. But we as- but that’s where we assume responsibility. Yeah That’s where we get into trouble, ’cause we think, “Well, I tried to help you. Why didn’t you act right?” [00:46:00] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why don’t you love me? I tried to help you. Yeah. That’s exactly. Why don’t you love me? I tried to help you. Yeah. Woo.

Yeah, but he didn’t ask. Yeah. No, he did not. He did not. Messy. I mean- I’m sorry, I would’ve done the same thing. Yeah. I probably would’ve felt… Yeah, I, I have just so much compassion for this situation, because it’s like, we, we love our families and we want to… We wanna… We love them. We don’t wanna see them suffer.

Well, I did some, I did some other messed up shit after the DUI, which was I was so worried about him that I called… I got the numbers of his AA friends. Oh, that’s right. You told me. I called them. Yeah. You’re like- I was like, “Can you do something?” Mm-hmm. Which is- Yeah … um, I didn’t know that’s not the way AA works.

And so- Yeah. Mm-hmm … um, yeah. And that was, I think, embarrassing for him, and he was annoyed with that. And so that, that I would say I wish I could take that back, ’cause that was a shit move. Okay, so that… Maybe just put a pin in that. Yeah Because that might be something [00:47:00] that goes on the amends list. Yeah, yeah.

Yes. That I, I take responsibility. It was a, it was a bad move. It… I will say again, well, it’s like the road to hell is paved with good intentions. My, my intention was not bad. It was not to, like, embarrass him in any way. It was just like- You’re trying to help … he’s not talking to me, I don’t know what to do.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I’m supposed to do something. Yeah. I have to do something. It’s my job to help. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, that’s pretty common. Yeah. Um, yeah, so- I, I, I feel like there’s probably more writing to be done on your brother- Mm … and on your parents. Okay. But this is a good, this is a good, um, this is a good start.

Okay. And so it’s really important to stay specific about the cause of the resentment. Right. How were you affected, and what was my part for that specific instance? And then if [00:48:00] you’re finding it’s like, “Ooh, I shouldn’t have said anything to his friends. I shouldn’t have…” Like, if you’re starting to notice things that you did, like actions that you took- Put them on the amends list?

Yeah, just you can just sort of start a little separate list, like, oh, I should probably… I’ll… Well, and, and listen, we’re not on… That’s nine. We’re only on four. Oof. So we’re not on that step. Yeah. So I’m not doing anything, but, you know, the information came up, so I might as well just jot it down somewhere and- Yeah

we’ll address it later. That’s a, uh… That’s… We’re not on that step, so. Okay. But, you know, it came up. Might, might as well jot it down somewhere. Yeah. But, um, here again, we can see that your self-esteem has really taken a hit. It reinforced these negative limiting beliefs. We… You know, it’s like you came to this conclusion, “Here is some more evidence that I am not lovable.

Here is some more evidence- Yeah … that I am not loved.” But so our part is that we can actually come to a different conclusion [00:49:00] that’s liberating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so. Okay. So that, you know, that might be… Um, and what are some assets that you developed from this experience with your brother? I’m, I’m sure that you’ve- Mm

had to come to some sort of r- peace. Yeah. I think, I think one of the assets there is, um, resilience. I think, uh, that one made me really resilient and, uh, more independent. I will say- Okay … that one, uh, took out… That took out my whole family pretty much because my, my parents sort of believed him. Um- They sided with your brother- Yeah

and ostracized you? Yeah, so that, that wiped them all out. And then, you know, even more exciting was a couple of years l- later, my husband left. So I would say the combination, like… No, but I became r- like more [00:50:00] resilient and more independent from that. And so I… Yeah, do I wish it hadn’t happened? For sure. But in a way too, there was some peace to kinda, like, the end of this, like, crazy.

Like, so I’ve had- Mm-hmm … like six years now of like, “Nobody wants to talk to me. That’s okay,” you know? Um- Yeah. But I… Yeah, there is some, like, peace, like, I have. And I, I think too- It, it made me a lot more… And I, I don’t, like, love the term even-tempered, but I didn’t feel the need to, like, defend myself, like, vehemently in this case.

That it’s like, “Look, I didn’t do it. That’s it.” Like, I shouldn’t have to say that much more than that. Yeah. I didn’t do it. Yeah. I didn’t do it. Like, I don’t… It… You know what I mean? You should just believe me. Like, and- Yeah … so I think there was that. I didn’t get that heated about it. Um, and yeah, I would say it was good for me.

It was… I- in that sense, like, where- Yeah … [00:51:00] I think I became a lot more, you know, independent and, like, self-sufficient, and like, “Okay, so they’re gone. Uh, what’s next?” You know? I mean, that… So that’s, like, self-protection. Yeah. That’s setting boundaries. That’s not allowing pe- abusive people into your life who don’t value you.

Yeah. There’s whatever the s- opposite of self-abandonment is. It’s like self-nurturing, self-protection. Like, those are all good things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. For sure. That was really good. Yeah, I would encourage you to go back and do some more writing about- Yeah … other instances. There, there’s, there’s more there.

Yeah. Um, let’s do this last one. So Junior. Oh, JR. Oh, JR. Jeremy. Um, yeah, this motherfucker. This fucking guy This fucking guy This fucking guy Wait, Tommy, what did he do? [00:52:00] He slept with my friend. Oh. Um, but- That’s not on the list … I didn’t know that. He left without explanation. Okay. So this fool, we had dinner, we walked our dogs the night before, we talked, we were fine.

We slept in the same bed. Um, and then woke up the next morning and was like, “I’m, I’m leaving.” And I didn’t know why, right? So no explanation, just like, “Oh, I’m going through a rough time. I think I just need some space.” And I was like, “Okay,” you know, like an idiot. Like, I was like, “Okay. Well, that’s fine,” you know?

“Take your space.” So he didn’t even tell you that he was leaving for good. He just said, “I need a little space”? No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um- A liar. And, and now… Okay, so then we’ll take that as a, one incident, and then no- then this asshole, like, I have to go into therapy, right? And then realize he wasn’t even that good a fucking husband.

So now I’m mad that I let him treat me like shit for, [00:53:00] like, 18 years. Wow, 18 years. And then he goes and leaves like that, which now makes sense when you do the work, realizing he was an asshole. So then he did what assholes do, which is leave. And he was, like, hypercritical, so he was a, just like, you know, wasn’t somebody who ever took accountability for his own actions.

Was always criticizing other people, so big shock, he left like a coward. Yeah. So that, um… Yeah. That, that’s like, so I guess it’s a two-parter, but we can focus on one. It’s up to you. Yeah. Um, so it affected your self-esteem, insecurity, self- Yeah … like, so you start seeing that these are, like, reoccurring, like- It hurts

y- you, yeah, you start feeling these reoccurring feelings, and then you come to the same conclusion. It’s always your fault. Yeah. Yeah. You’re always to [00:54:00] blame. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So when we’re always, uh, blaming ourselves, that’s self-abandonment. That’s an inappropriate assuming responsibility for things that aren’t yours.

Yeah. So it’s a, it’s a pattern, right? Um, you put under your part was allowing him to dominate or criticize me. Yeah. Me. That, that might be fair. Um, not- Yeah … defending yourself. Uh, you put self-pity. Why is self-pity there? Um, the not defending myself was like a, “Oh, poor me. My husband’s like being such an asshole.”

Like, there were times where I knew that I was- Ah … I didn’t defend myself on purpose, and was just like feeling sorry for myself almost, that like I had- Hmm … to take the blame or just like I would accept the criticism a lot. And so I would just be like, “Well, that sucks. It’s my fault that this happened.” But, you know, and so there was this sort of like self-pity.

It… [00:55:00] Would it be fair to say that you were actually having an appropriate sad response to the situation?

Uh, I think I was having a response to my reaction. I think I could’ve been like, “Shut the fuck up, you asshole,” you know? But you were judg- you were judging, uh, the self-pity refers to you judging you for having sad feelings. Yeah. Yeah. That’s true. I just wanna say that you are allowed to be sad. Yeah. That your feelings of sadness were valid.

Okay. So that’s not necessarily self-pity. You may have been having- Yeah … an appropriate response to being treated poorly, to being treated, to being criticized. Okay. Um, yeah, that would make me sad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe not allowing, not… So the, our part is, like when we [00:56:00] experience sadness, is to validate our own feelings and to nurture ourselves.

But you were not taught that. You were taught to- Hmm … shut it down, don’t be like that, like your feelings are not valid. And so the interpretation of, in your mind of, of sadness is, “Oh, I was wallowing in self-pity.” Yes Yeah Yeah So maybe self-judgment- Yeah … self-criticism You know, maybe that might’ve been your part, you know, not being a- may- not having…

Listen, we just saw how you have had years of your self-esteem being damaged over and over- Yeah … and over and over again. It’s not reasonable to expect that you would be able to set boundaries or say, “Hey, fuck you, that’s not okay.” Mm. It’s not reasonable to expect that of yourself if your self-esteem [00:57:00] is really low.

It’s not fair. Oh, yeah. I will say an interesting part about getting sober is that I did stop defending myself as much- Mm-hmm … which is a weird reaction, because I didn’t wanna argue anymore. Yeah, choosing peace over arguing. Yeah. Yeah, and so that is part of where the, like, not defending myself part, um, it was not true of the, like, maybe, like, 12, 13 years of the relationship before I got sober.

But once I got sober, I was like, “I’m not gonna engage.” I feel like that’s an asset. Mm. Choosing not to engage is an asset. Okay, yeah. Yeah, it was one thing I did decide was like, “I’m not gonna engage.” Yeah, good for you. Yeah. Like, it’s why? Why- Yeah … engage? It’s not worth it. You just get upset. Yeah. It’s true.

But in this case, where we’re talking about, you know, aba- being abandoned again- Yeah … right, being criticized again, it’s like, “Oh, I didn’t [00:58:00] realize that my childhood trauma led me to attract- Yes … and live with someone who treated me the same.” You just didn’t know. No. You just didn’t know. I did not know. And because your self-esteem was so low, you tolerated it for a long time.

And the truth of the matter- Yeah … is he did you a fucking favor by leaving. Oh my God. I would never have left. I know you know that now, but… Yeah, but I would never have left. And so, yeah, to anyone who is listening, it is good to exam- even once you get sober, start examining your relationships and why you got in them, right?

Yeah. And so for some reason I wasn’t looking at it, or, well, this comes to another thing that I take my part, it was like there was this sort of, like, wanting to create this image, right, of h- like- Oh … I was, it was one of my values was, like, I really valued being married. Mm-hmm. I really, it was important to me.

Um, I thought I’d be married forever. And so I think that those were things I should have been examining once I got [00:59:00] sober, once I, and I was in the relationship. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Most of us are not taught sort of a self-examination process. Mm. Like, that to me is what the fourth step is. It’s a actual pragmatic process for self-examination.

And it’s best to do- Ah … it with somebody com- like, I consider myself to be an empathetic, compassionate person. This stuff is hard to look at And so it’s important to have someone that goes, “Hey, that wasn’t actually your… That wasn’t your fault. That’s not your part.” Yeah. Like, you’re assuming responsibility for something that’s not yours, you know?

I guess, like, what I also wonder is if I had done the steps when I got sober in, like, 2017, right? I didn’t get divorced till 2022. I don’t think I would have put this. I don’t think I would’ve say, “Oh, I resent that my husband criticizes me.” Mm-hmm. I don’t think I was there. Like, I think I don’t- Yeah. Yeah, and that…

How do we [01:00:00] help people get there, you know? Because like- Well, here’s, here’s a funny thing. I, this is just my personal belief. It’s a, you know, beliefs are tools, so this is something that kind of serves me. It just feels like a more compassionate perspective. I really feel like everything happens when it’s supposed to.

I know. I do, too. I do, too. Yeah? Yeah. So- I don’t think I would’ve been strong enough to end the marriage at that… I don’t think I was in a, the right… It wasn’t the right time to end the marriage at that time. Yeah. I hear what you’re saying. Yeah. So to look in hindsight and be like, “I shoulda done this, I shoulda da…”

It, it, uh, it couldn’t have happened, because it didn’t. Mm-hmm. And so it’s happening now, and now is good Yeah … that was good. Yeah, yeah. It’s part of that thing, which is like, “Why am I not this enough?” Or, “Why didn’t I- Yeah … do this early enough?” Or, “Why didn’t I…” Yeah, yeah, yeah. To feel still, like yeah, that still I’m not good enough.

I should’ve done it different. I should… Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good catch. Like, you really, like- Ooh … legit caught that in the moment. That was really good. [01:01:00] I do think, though, like I think maybe some advice w- when listing, like, the resentments is, like, not, like, to tell people, like, I mean, look at every relationship in your life.

But, like, just suggest, like, “Mm, why don’t you, like, write a list of the people that are, like, really close to you, and, like, let’s just take a quick look at those?” Yeah. I mean, self-examination requires a lot of courage, and I would say that most people are not willing to do it. Sure. Most people are not willing to do it.

But I will say, like, the assets, like when I did the part four of the homework, like, so many of the assets have come in those, in the last, like, four years since that divorce. Wow. Like, so many of them have come from it. Like, I can’t even… So I mean, you pick one off the list, and it’s like, “Yeah, I’m that now because I went through this,” you know?

Yeah. So it was, like, like the worst and best thing that ever happened to me. Like, still remains, like, one of the biggest tragedies [01:02:00] of my life and the saddest thing, but, like, the best… Like, this chapter of my life wouldn’t be possible without it, so. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a funny thing. Yeah. It’s like we get to choose, we get to choose how we…

We get to choose our perspective, and why not choose- Yeah … an empowering perspective? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this was truly- We get to choose … truly an empowering experience. And I think divorce in general sucks, and, like, sucks for a long time, but eventually… I remember my lawyer saying to me, and I remember being like, “You’re fucking nuts.”

He was like, “I promise you, one day you’re gonna be, like, sitting on your porch, and you’re gonna look out, and you’re gonna be like, ‘Thank God- Yeah … that this happened.'” And I was like, “Nope. No way. No way.” Not today, Satan. “I was in love with my husband. I loved him. Like, we’d been together.” Yeah. “No. There no way.”

And like- Yeah … yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It, yeah, yeah, yeah. That takes a lot of courage to admit that. But what a, what an [01:03:00] interesting observation that you can be like, “Oh, I’m present- I’m occasionally presented with ideas that I fully reject.” And given some time and perspective, I can totally change my, my, uh, beliefs, my thoughts around that.

Well, look at how I felt about AA. Yeah. I mean, I was like, “No way. No way.” Yeah. Like, our podcast is an alternative, you know? Yeah. Or like that- Which is fair. Yeah But no, like this is, this is some good shit. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It’s so good. There’s, in the book I talk about this story from Eckhart Tolle’s book, I think it was A New Earth, where there is a stranger walking down the street and he comes across a beggar, and the beggar is sitting on the box and he holds out his cup.

And he’s like, “Hey, do you have any change?” And the stranger’s like, “I don’t have any change, but what’s… I don’t have anything to give you, but what’s in that box you’re sitting on?” And he’s like, “Nothing. I’ve been sitting on this box for, for a very long time.” And he’s like, “Did [01:04:00] you ever look inside?” And, and so the beggar, like, looks inside the box and it’s like full of treasure.

And so Eckhart Tolle is like, “I don’t have anything to give you, but the treasure’s inside.” And my interpretation of that story was that we see things, like the beggar saw the box, and he assigned a meaning to it that it didn’t have value. And so not unlike people see 12 step, they see AA, they come to some conclusions, and they throw the ba- they miss the treasure.

Yeah. And so that- No, that’s so true. Yeah. So I feel like there is such a treasure. Like, there’s l- I’m not saying that there’s not a lot of problems with 12 step, and there’s like a lot of issues. But, um, I really believe in the, the actual… Like meetings can be challenging, but the actual program is actually pretty genius.

Yeah. This ability to do self-examination and come to these realizations and see things that you wouldn’t have seen before, ’cause you didn’t have, um, [01:05:00] a process for self-examination. But I also, what I’m learning too, is it’s not just like, “Okay, let’s do this step, and let’s do the homework, and let’s do…” It’s like you really have to look at yourself, and like what do you need to get from this step?

You know what I mean? That’s what it’s all about. Like, how does this step relate to me? And so n- I can see it from a, if you treat it like school- It’s tough. Like, just memorize this kind of thing- Yeah … it doesn’t work. Like, you really have to, like, embody it. And, like, this week has been really tough for me doing the fourth step.

Yeah. It was tough. It sucked. I was a little- I know … moody. Yeah. Um- That’s hard … but it’s ’cause I wanted to get something out of it, right? If I just wanted to do it and just like, “Oh, here. Here’s some resentments. I hate my parents,” um, that would’ve been, like, easier. But, like, to do it is, like, to do [01:06:00] it. Yeah.

It’s so interesting because people actually like to do hard things, like, uh, Spartan races and Ironmans, and people are, like, up for a challenge. Yeah. But f- so if you have any sort of… If you’re spicy in any way or have, like, a rebellious attitude, this is where to apply it. Yeah. This is where to be like, “Yeah, I’m gonna…”

Like, I was so, I was so, uh, rebellious. I, I got, I showed up at a meeting one time, and they were like, “Only 1 out of 100 people are gonna go the distance,” or whatever, and I, I knew. I was like, “Fuck you, it’s gonna be me.” Fuck you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was so rebellious. I was like, “It’s gonna be me.” Yeah.

You know? And- Yeah. No, I do. I think it requires you to really, like, yeah, you have to embody the steps. Like, you really have to- I was like, “Oh, yeah, you can’t scare me with the fourth step. I’m gonna do it”- Yeah … crying the whole time. Like, “Oh my God, this is so hard.” Yeah. For those who thought this was just about, like, you know, letting go and letting God-

it’s a little bit more than that [01:07:00] Yeah. Haven’t you found that the hardest part is finding places to be compassionate towards yourself? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will say in combination with therapy, this is pretty cool too. Yeah. ‘Cause it does bring stuff up that you wanna process a bit more. Um- Yeah

and, uh, you know, sometimes with, like, a professional. And, like, it, it, it is really great. Brought up a lot of stuff for therapy. Yeah. I, I, I love that you’re doing that because, you know, 12-step is peer support. They’re not professionals. Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Really, the role of a sponsor is to listen, share, be honest about what comes up for you.

Like, I try to just be honest about what comes up for me. I’m always looking for, like, where are you being too hard on yourself? Yeah. Where did you abandon yourself? Where did you develop negative beliefs that are hurting you? That’s kinda, you know, what’s always running in the background of my mind. Like, I tend to attract people that are high achievers who assume too much responsibility, and it’s just [01:08:00] they’re burnt the fuck out and sad, and it’s like, “Oh, let’s, let’s find out what you can let go of and- Yeah

and, uh, be more gentle with yourself.” It’s easier to get somebody to back off of responsibility than it is to get someone to assume responsibility. Like, if you’re stuck in victim mode, it’s very hard to make progress. So I really- Oh, yeah … appreciate that you’re so willing to take responsibility. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think too after, you know, as, like, an alcoholic or recovering alcoholic, you’re like, “I know I’ve done some dumb shit.”

You know what I mean? Like, you’re kinda like, “Where can I find… I gotta take some responsibility for my behavior.” Um, and so yeah, yeah, I think there is some of that. Yeah. I still do dumb shit occasionally. Yeah. Still human. Yeah, me too. Still human. That’s all. Well, this was really good. Thank you so much for being willing to share this.

Uh, I know you got some more writing to do. You and I are gonna go over some things in private that’s not appropriate to air out on a podcast. Yeah. [01:09:00] So, um, I’m, I’m really looking forward to that. I suspect you’re gonna see some, some repeating patterns- Mm-hmm … uh, in those resentments too, but at the end of it you’ll be free.

Yep. Yay. Well, good job today. Thank you so much for being willing to do this. Thank you. I, like, love having you as my sponsor. I talk about it all the time. Like, “Arlina’s my sponsor. She wrote this book.” Um, I don’t know if you guys have heard of it, 12-Step for Skeptics. Like, I- Yeah, I tell everybody She’s amazing.

Yeah. Yeah, I’m so lucky. I do have to tell people that I do work with people who are like, “I’m not doing that. I’m not going to 12,” and that’s cool too. Yeah, yeah. Like, there’s still work to be done for people that… I still work with people who are, like, practicing moderation or don’t wanna do 12-step. So there’s many ways to get sober.

Yeah. But thank you for your, um, whatever that is. I appreciate it. Thanks. What do you want to call that? Appreciate it. All right, my dear. Thank you so much. Thank you. I’ll see you for step [01:10:00] five.