From Navy SEAL to Sobriety: Dr. Tony Dice on Secrets, Shame, and Addiction

What if the very thing you trained your whole life to become – the identity you bled for, the title you earned – turned out to be the exact thing addiction used against you? And what happens when a man built to be a hero realizes he can no longer save his own son?

Dr. Tony Dice is a Navy SEAL veteran, PhD, and author of After the Trident: A Navy SEAL’s Battle with Secrets, Shame, and Addiction. With 16 years of sobriety, Tony rebuilt his life from a crystal meth addiction that left him at 130 pounds at 6’2″ – and turned that rock bottom into a second career as a therapist, researcher, and recovery advocate. He served alongside Jocko Willink at SEAL Team 2, gave up his SEAL career to protect his drug use, and eventually found his way through a 12-step program he now helps therapists understand on an entirely new level.

The Identity That Addiction Destroys

Tony grew up in extreme isolation – one of eight kids, homeschooled, living in a mountain town called Horse Creek with a population of 89, with an alcoholic father whose moods ruled the household. He ran away at 16, earned his GED, and began chasing the only thing that made him feel whole: being the hero. Firefighter, EMT, ambulance medic – he kept climbing until someone told him the top of the food chain was a Navy SEAL. He signed up the next day.

But in the military, alcohol was practically issued along with the uniform – it was how you bonded, how you coped, how you proved you belonged. And for Tony, whose drug use eventually escalated to crystal meth, the addiction quietly dismantled everything the SEAL identity had built. “Addiction had blinded me and robbed me of a career path,” he says. He got out of the Navy not because he wanted to – but because staying meant getting caught. He chose his addiction over his dream.

The Moment Everything Cracked

Tony’s rock bottom came during the H1N1 pandemic scare. He was three days into a meth binge when the daycare called: his two-year-old son Ronan had been exposed to the virus, and all parents needed to come pick up their kids. For three hours, Tony tried to put the pipe down and walk out the door. For three hours, he couldn’t do it. His wife’s calls went to voicemail. The daycare’s calls went to voicemail. He turned off his phone.

“My whole life I trained to be a hero, and I couldn’t do that anymore – not even for my son.” That was the moment the denial broke. He checked into the Farley Center in Williamsburg, Virginia, at 130 pounds. On day six, when his insurance cut out, he asked his therapist for a four-hour pass, took the bus to CarMax, sold his car for $9,000, and went back to treatment. Standing in that parking lot with a check in his hand and no way home, he made a choice. He endorsed the check, handed it to the front desk, and stayed.

A New Framework for Understanding Recovery

Tony went on to earn his PhD, and along the way he noticed something remarkable about the 12-step program that had saved his life: it wasn’t just spiritual wisdom – it was clinical psychology, hiding in plain sight. He calls it the Holistic Change Model. Steps 1-3 are stages of change. Steps 4-5 are narrative therapy. Steps 6-9 are cognitive behavioral therapy. Steps 10-12 are existential therapy. Over 220 different 12-step fellowships use this exact structure – and it works because it follows the natural curve of human recovery and redemption. Tony now teaches this framework to therapists so they can better support the patients already doing 12-step work.

And through all of it, one thing has anchored him: gratitude – not as a feeling, but as an action. He has a handcuff key tattooed on his leg with the word “gratitude” on it. “A grateful alcoholic will not drink,” his sponsor told him early on. Tony took that literally. Washing the dishes after dinner, arranging the pillows on the bed in a new pattern every morning so his wife comes home and loves it – everything is an expression of what he gets to have today.

“Gratitude is not just a feeling – it is an action word. And that is what freed me from so much of what I was holding onto.”

Recovery doesn’t require a perfect past – it just requires willingness. Tony Dice went from Navy SEAL to rock bottom to PhD, and what he found along the way is that the 12 steps work precisely because they mirror the deepest truths of human psychology. If you are in the middle of your own fight right now, know this: the program is not asking you to be who you were. It is asking you to find out who you actually are.

Action Items

• Notice how your identity – your job title, your role, your reputation – might be connected to your relationship with substances or compulsive behavior. Recovery often means rebuilding who you are from the inside out.
• Keep a physical reminder of your rock bottom close by. Tony keeps a photo of himself at 130 pounds on his desk every day as a reminder of what is still available if he chooses it.
• Practice gratitude as action, not just a feeling. Washing dishes, making the bed, calling a friend – find one concrete way to express it every single day.
• If you struggle to sit still in early recovery, keep your hands busy. Crocheting, coloring books, or a repetitive gym routine can be legitimate forms of meditation.
• Look up Enjoying the Journey by NA World Services – written in a modern voice and organized by life topic (relationships, money, kids), it is one of the most practical recovery resources available today.
• If you are bored at meetings, take that as a signal – not that the meetings have failed, but that it may be time to level up your recovery work.
• Willingness is the door to step three. You do not have to have it all figured out. You just have to be willing to go to any length.

Resources Mentioned

• After the Trident: A Navy SEAL’s Battle with Secrets, Shame, and Addiction by Dr. Tony Dice –
• Enjoying the Journey – NA World Services (recent publication, organized by life topic)
• Dr. Tony Dice on YouTube: @drdice
• Dr. Tony Dice on social media: #drdice
• Dr. Tony Dice website: bishopdicedefense.com

👊 Additional Resources:

🎁 Free Guide: 30 Tips for Your First 30 Days – With a printable PDF checklist
Grab your copy here: https://www.soberlifeschool.com

☎️ Private Coaching: Make Sobriety Stick – For Sober Curious or abstinence seekers 
https://www.makesobrietystick.com

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Dr. Dykes, thank you so much for joining me today. Oh, it’s my honor to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. Yeah. I saw see you right from the start. I was like, “Navy SEAL, everyone’s gonna wanna hear a story.” Oh, my gosh. Okay. We’ll share. That’s what we’re here for. We’ll, we’ll talk a little bit about that, but we’re gonna talk about your book, After the Trident: A Navy SEAL’s Battle with Secrets, Shame, and Addiction.

I know. I know. I mean, this, half of me thinks this book’s gonna land me in jail. The, the lawyers were like, “You can’t say that.” I’m like, “It’s the truth. It’s the truth.” Yeah. Yeah. And, I think what’s really interesting is what you’ve done afterwards, right? Mm-hmm.

So it’s not just about surviving and overcoming, it’s not about the horror stories of addiction- No … but it’s all the things that you’ve been able to accomplish after that. Oh, yeah. A lot of it’s, many people, especially, high performers, they have an identity, and that’s everything to them.

And one thing you and I both know about addiction is it shatters, it erodes it from the inside, robs you of the honor, and [00:01:00] shatters that identity. And so through recovery, finding my way, finding who I was, and actually realizing there’s so much more to me than just being a Navy SEAL. So that was the big- Yeah

aha moment in my life. That’s … Yeah. We will definitely get into it. I like to do a little game I call the lightning round. Yeah. Which everybody teases me ’cause it’s very slow. But I like to front load the episode with some resources. Okay. So, when it… i, I’m a total book nerd. So were there any books that especially helped you early on in recovery?

Um, yes, there’s a book out there and it’s, and it’s, uh, NA World Literature put it out. It’s one of the more recent publications. It’s called Enjoying the Journey, and it has, uh, recovery segments, but it’s almost like categories. So if you wanna know about sex, if you wanna know about relationships, it’s, it’s grouped like that.

So it’s very useful in early recovery, navigating different phases that you’ll be passing through. So it’s called Enjoying the Journey, [00:02:00] NA World Services puts it out. Love that. I’m sure it covers all the things about, like, raising kids and money and- Yes, yeah, very topical. And it’s actually one of the most recent pieces of literature written.

I think it’s only six or seven years old, so it’s, it’s written in a, in a voice we can understand, ’cause we know, you know- … AA and NA was written back in 1935. No one talks like that anymore. And so it’s easy to relate to. John Barleycorn? Who the hell is John Barleycorn? Exactly. Exactly. No, that’s, that’s really cool.

What about, how long have you been sober? Let’s see. July will be 16 years. Woo-hoo. Congratulations. Thank you. So 16 years ago, it doesn’t sound like this book was out. What books really helped you, like, in the very beginning? You know, my, I was a, my drug of choice towards the end was crystal meth, so my, I was like this vibrating little mess.

And it was- See, you were reading a lot I wasn’t reading. It was hard to get through a, like a recovery meeting reading- Yeah … you know? Like- I get it … it was, everything was hard. Yeah. So some of the basic, basic things that I [00:03:00] was given, like, read this chapter in the big book, was a monumental task.

Okay. So yeah, that, early on, that’s all I could hold onto. Thank you for sharing that, because I, I don’t think people talk about that often enough, of just about how squirrely we are- Mm-hmm … in the beginning. Like, not everybody was raised to be a book nerd. And maybe we just take it piecemeal. I’ll share a secret inside note I don’t tell anybody.

Um- Ooh. Early recovery, I was so hard for me to stay in my seat. I’d get up and get coffee, and I’d walk around the back of the meeting. Yeah. And I was just so antsy, and my sponsor was like, “Just sit down. Whatever it takes, stay in your seat,” you know? And so I’m sitting there, and I look over and I see a little old lady crocheting.

Yeah. And I remember my mom had taught me to crochet when I was a kid. You know, being a good addict, I, I went out and I shoplifted some yarn. And then- … I sat down in the meeting and I started crocheting, and I would crochet so hard I had like a bead of sweat. Yeah. And I could make a whole scarf in one meeting.

[00:04:00] That is so cool. And I did that my whole first year. The crazy epilogue to that story is that I’m the oldest of eight brothers and sisters. Half of them in rec- are in recovery, and I didn’t know this till later, but all of us crocheted our first year in recovery. We instinctively all regressed to something we could keep- We, we could find comfort in.

So that’s, uh, it’s crazy. Yeah. It’s so funny because I remember I, I’m a knitter too. I actually crochet. I, I’m a crocheter. Yes. I can’t, I can’t do the knitting. But I can, but I won’t. But the i- the idea of when your hands are busy, then your ears can listen. So I’ve seen people do, bring, um, like, coloring books.

Yes. Adult coloring books. There’s, like, adult col- Yeah. Adult coloring books. Yeah. People bring coloring books. Or I just love that there, there are so many different things, but I was part of the crocheters club too. You as a dude- I know … did you catch so much smoke for that? Well, you know, I did go out and I got the biggest crochet hook I could find.

It [00:05:00] was, like, as thick as my finger now. A manly one. A manly crochet hook, and I would get, like, five strands of yarn at one time, and I’d make these huge scarves. So I tried to make it as masculine as pos- As possible. Yeah. I don’t know why, when that became, like, a woman’s thing, but- Back in the olden days, you know- Yeah.

Back then- … men used to do it all the time. You gotta do what you gotta do. Well, well listen, I love that. That is probably the one of the most helpful tips that I’ve heard in a very long time. Very unique. Over your sobriety- Mm-hmm … over the last 16 years, would you say that you had a quote or there, a theme of your sobriety?

And I’ll buy you a little time by saying obviously mine is, like, one day at a time, but also, like, just to find the balance- Yeah … and recommit. That was kinda my, over the last 16 years. I get that. Totally get that. Mine’s easy. Um, it’s, I think within the first couple years it became the bedrock for my recovery, and it was something I heard in a [00:06:00] meeting and I brought up with my sponsor, and he said that, you know, a grateful alcoholic will not drink.

And gratitude is the key. And I have a large like, a handcuff key tattooed on my leg where it says gratitude on it, because that’s what freed me from so much- Mm … of what I was holding onto. And if- Yeah … if I can find gratitude in my life- On a daily basis in everything I do, ’cause gratitude’s an action word, you know?

My wife makes me a wonderful dinner, I am washing those dishes with gratitude, and I’m cleaning the kitchen, and it’s my way of showing gratitude, you know? And for everything with my kids, it’s the same. It’s all, how can I express my gratitude for having my life today? Yes. Grat- listen, that is, like, the, the magic, uh, component right there.

Mm-hmm. I feel like it’s so underrated too, ’cause it’s free and it’s easy. Yes, it is. But it’s important. And it’s, you know, it’s not just a feeling. It’s action. Yeah. It’s an action word, yeah. I love that in the program it’s all about action, right? Do you have a regular self-care routine? I, I’m gonna [00:07:00] guess yes, but, and it can be, like, a morning routine.

Do you have, like, a weekly set of meetings, annual retreats? What does that look like for you? Good call. Yes, my normal, early on I was a meeting maker. You know, my sponsor said, “If you’re not at home, you’re not at work, your ass had better be in a meeting.” And so I would if I didn’t have anything to do that day, it’d be three, four, five, six meetings a day.

And, and I literally hit over 1,000 meetings my first year. I was just obsessed with going to meetings. That has since leveled off. As life b- gave me the different gifts of living a life of recovery, I’ve gotten to where I have two, sometimes three meetings a week is where my resting point is.

Yeah. Uh, things that I do, uh, on a daily. I, yep, make the bed. I have found with my wife that if I arrange the pillows in a certain magical way on the bed, she loses her shit and she thinks it’s awesome. So that’s something that I do every morning. I try to arrange it in a little different pattern every day, and she just loses her shit when she comes home from work.

So I, I do that. I, uh, I, early on I tried meditation. I really put a lot of [00:08:00] effort into it, and I had a lot of trouble with meditation. I really, I would close my eyes and all I could hear was, like, screaming in my head. Like I, I had a- Wow … a lot of trouble and it was very disturbing. And, um, I had a- really good therapist who recommended other forms of meditation. Yeah. And so, uh, running, I like to run. That’s a way for me to zone out. And in the gym I do this, this German strength building workout where it’s 10 sets of 10. So I literally am counting to 10 over and over again hundreds of times.

Mm-hmm. And that’s my meditation. And- I love that. I do that too. I, I have a day, um, my husband and I do weights five days a week, but one of my days I call it 10s. Yes. Right? 10 pushups, 10 pull-downs- Yep. Okay … 10 dips, and 10, I’m doing leg extensions right now. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a form of meditation.

Yeah. You just zone out and go with it. Yeah. And so on the daily I do three things for my recovery: call my sponsor, talk to some sponsees, go to a meeting. Those are my, I have to make sure in my [00:09:00] forefront I’m taking three actions towards my recovery. I love that. So I, you know what’s interesting to me is the idea that I hear people like, oh, at meetings afterwards, like, “I’m not getting anything out of it.”

And newsflash It’s so that we can give back, right? Mm-hmm. And every once in a while I’ll feel like I get something out of it, but I think people get confused as to why people with long-term recovery keep going. I know. A- a- and my sponsor pointed out to me, if you’re ever bored in a meeting, that’s a big red flag that you have stopped growing.

The meetings have been exactly the same since 1935. There’s always the old-timer in the back saying the same shit. You have the middle person in the middle who’s gone kinda crazy and still shares kinda crazy. You have the newcomer in the front who says, “Ah,” lost and saying weird stuff. All that exists every meeting.

A- and, for me working my first step to my second step, and now I’m seeing all three of those people differently, or how [00:10:00] much I’ve grown. Yeah. The old-timer’s message means something different. Fourth step, fifth step, sixth step, through my recovery. And then once I’m, I’ve gotten through the 12 steps, doesn’t mean I stop growing.

Mm-hmm. I have found that if I ever ran to a place where I feel bored or this is getting monotonous, that’s a red flag for me to, hey, I need to level up my recovery game. Um, there’s some cool things I’ve done with other people’s recovery. Like there was a really neat… I’m not gonna dine out his recovery, but he’s just a, he’s got such a strong message.

I asked him, “Hey, is there a way we could walk each other through those steps? Like, you do your way with me and I’ll…” And we did this through the 12 step with each other, and that was eye-opening how, you know, it’s like that cross-pollination. So there’s other ways to continue to grow in recovery, and I, I still look forward to my home group meetings.

I still look forward to many of my meetings because it’s, I call it the best show in town for a dollar. You know, it’s, there’s a lot going on. A dollar? You gotta [00:11:00] be, do two bucks now. Two bucks with inflation. Okay, so I’ll, I’ll confess and say that I have gotten bored at meetings, and I feel like that is my sign that maybe I need to rotate some of my tools.

Yeah. But I, there is such value in reviewing this information, because there’s that saying that we have like a quick forgetter. Mm-hmm. It’s easy to forget, and, but I, you know, I, I will get bored sometimes, and sometimes I get complacent, or it’s like, how many times can I hear this story from this same person?

I know. And then I have to remind myself, oh, here’s an opportunity for me to practice a little patience and compassion and- Oh … so I’m exercising that patience muscle without having… I, I don’t pray for patience ’cause then God will- Don’t ever pray for patience. Or humility. No. ‘Cause then God will give you a, a, a reason to be patient.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Or a [00:12:00] reason to practice humility. Um, but I, but I love that. It’s, there is just always a different way to look at the same information. Love that. Okay, so we’ve gotten through self-care practice. Uh, what’s one thing you wish you would’ve known right from the beginning? That’s when I was, I actually went to a, a treatment center.

You know, shout out to the Farley Center out there. They’re 12-step based, and they help literally saved my life. In that program, they focus on steps one, two, and three, you know? And I would look up, up there and I’d say, “Well, what about step six? What about step…” You know, and they would really, like, kind of shut me down, say, “Just focus on steps one, two, and three.”

And I was- Okay … I was, that gave me some… I said, “Listen, you want me to drink the Kool-Aid, but you’re not gonna tell the, tell me the recipe?” I wish someone would’ve shared- Oh … like, what the whole program was. Like, give me an overview. Give me some, share some more- Got it … ’cause I, you want me to swallow this, but you’re only gonna share the first three steps, you [00:13:00] know?

And so I, I wish someone would’ve given me more of an overview. And so- Okay … much of my outreach I do now when I go into treatment facilities is I do this broad overview of 12 steps. You know? Got it. What, what that transition looks like, where you could end up. And so that’s something I, I wish someone early on would’ve shared with me.

But, the way it happened for me seemed to work out, so who am I to try to change something that’s working? I get that, though. I think it’s so beneficial to have like, where are we going? Mm-hmm. Like, my, part of my brain is like, “I need to know where we’re going s- so that I feel like I have a clue.”

Yeah. I have trust issues. You want me to trust you? Give me some more. I have trust issues. Don’t we all? Yeah, I love that. Thank you for, that was the end of the lightning round. Oh, I loved that. You get a little dang star trophy, whatever. That was, I, don’t stop doing that. That was… Yeah. I haven’t done that in a long time.

Okay, so I kinda wanna talk about how we got here. Mm-hmm. And I’m always super curious. We’ll get into, like, the stories [00:14:00] ’cause I know everyone wants to hear that. But what happens in childhood really sets- Mm-hmm … the stage for what comes later. So, like, what did your dad do? You’re one of eight siblings.

What was that like for you? Yes. Oh, oh my gosh. So my mom and dad, my dad was a carpenter, you know, really good with wood, just real, almost magical, all rounded corners, really, really artistic. Uh, my mom was a, a mom. And they were very strict Catholics. And they were so strict Catholics that, you know, pre-Vatican II, I don’t know if everyone remembers that.

It’s when the, the priest kind of stopped facing the altar and started facing the congregation. For whatever reason, that flipped my mom out, and she pulled us all out of school, and we were all homeschooled. So now- Oh my goodness … all eight of us are homeschooled from, like, an early age. And then not only that, we originally lived in, excuse me, San Diego.

They disconnected from society and went up to the mountains of Northern California, and we lived in a tent by the side of the river for a year, and then eventually found a home up there in the mountains. So we kinda, like, ran away from [00:15:00] society. So- Wow. Yes. We lived in this town called Horse Creek, which was population 89.

And so if you do the math, like 10% of the population’s in my family when we moved in. You know, it, it was crazy. Wow. It was crazy. Eight kids up in the woods, all homeschooled, and, you know, that gave us a lot of freedom. Uh, built tons of forts and rope swings, and I learned to swim in the river and, you know, just crazy outdoor adventures.

But you start turning 15, 16, and you realize there’s not– there’s, like, one girl within 100 miles, and she doesn’t like me. That becomes a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I ran away. Yeah. Oh, you did? I did. I ran away from home at 16. I, uh, I was very worried ’cause, uh, uh, God bless my mom. I love her.

She’s amazing, but I don’t feel she was an incredible teacher. She would give us books and say, “You know, learn or be stupid. It’s up to you, and what you learn, you teach your sister, and she’ll teach your brother,” and so on and [00:16:00] so forth. But I– that left me with a– I felt like I was falling behind everyone else in the world.

Wow. Yeah. Like, at a gas station, if I saw another kid my age, I’d go ask him math problems and history questions, trying to figure out if I was as smart as them or not. You know, I was, I was really worried that I was not smart enough. And so when I ran away, I went all the way back down to San Diego from Northern California, and, uh, I g- took my GED, and I did a lot of couch surfing.

I stayed with some relatives at first. You know, at 16, I had this Indiana Jones fedora on and a leather jacket ’cause I thought I was Indiana Jones, and I got into San Diego Mesa College at 16 and started taking classes. Wow. And the classes had like 100 people in the classroom, and that’s more than my hometown, so I was just big- big-eyed and motivated, just wanted to just do something with my life.

That’s crazy. Did your, did your parents, uh, what… So your dad was a carpenter. Did you, did either of them drink? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. My dad [00:17:00] had a, he had a temper. He was an alcoholic. Mm … before, I think he did a lot of drugs and partying before, and he kinda fell into an alcoholic groove. And so he was, you know, there was, there was, like, angry sober dad, and then there was Dad who was happy and drunk, you know?

And there was those- Oh, wow … two places, and you had to figure out which dad it was. And it was, uh, yeah, it, it, Dad had a lot going on. And, and there was a… It’s almost like in our family of eight kids the years that my dad had the the hardest drinking were the w- there was a cutoff in the kids that the ones who were exposed to that all became addicts and alcoholics, and the ones after that- Wow

Didn’t. So there was this, there’s definitely, like, a you know, the, the nature versus nurture going on there where you see it’s genetic, but it’s also behavioral. Yeah. You know? So would you… I’m, I’m sure you’ve been to lots of therapy and all that stuff. Do, were you considered complex PTSD from repetitive, like, exposure to violence and?

Th- [00:18:00] that also, and there were some, there were some strange things that my dad did early on that echoed throughout my life. A- and one that pulled on me when I was, I was very young, and we were in the backyard, and he was digging. And I, I must’ve only been five or six years old, and it’s one of my earliest memories.

My dad stops, and he’s leaning on the shovel, and he says, out of the blue, “I wonder what it would feel like to take a human life.” And I remember just being a little kid and that, knowing that’s an out of place statement, but just being like It impacted me. And that kind of followed my life journey, you know?

Into, like, playing with G.I. Joe characters, and as I grew up, always wanting to be the hero, always wanting to chase adrenaline and, finally becoming a Navy SEAL. There was this quest for feeling extreme feelings, you know? Like, what does that feel like? What does everything feel like? What does more feel like?

Yeah, so I, I, I think early on I could trace my addiction to wanting to feel more in a lot of [00:19:00] what I did. Yeah. Did you have a lot of fear growing up? Were you afraid of your dad? I was definitely afraid of my dad. I was, uh, afraid of being stupid. Uh, there was a lot of fear motivated, but at the same time, I was very risk-averse, you know?

The more my dad got mad at me and punished me, the sneakier I began be- became. Mm-hmm. You know, I got– My, my tactics for getting away with shit leveled up as my dad kept trying to catch me. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I became very, um, very stealthy, and my, my risk versus, risk that would normally stop other people, I would just seem like I could just push past that.

I was very much risk-aver- risk– pro risk-averse. I think that’s what you call it, yeah. Uh, it sounds like you were like leaning into risk as opposed to fear. I wa- I was, nah, risk did not bother me, you know? I, I- Yeah … very much, Pro risk … pro risk. Yeah. I was very comfortable with risk. Risky. Yes. Yeah, risky behavior, yeah, which, which checks out considering your youth.

Yeah. But I learned how to carry that. Uh, when I was a young kid, [00:20:00] my dad carried cash in his blue jeans and, you know, sometimes he worked nights and he would just sleep in the, on his couch. And I’d crack the door and see him sleeping, and I’d crawl across the floor kinda timing my crawls with his snore.

Like I’d crawl a little bit more and- Yeah … and I’d get up to his blue jeans, and I’d reach in there and I’d be fishing out some money out of his pocket, knowing if he woke up, he would beat my ass. And I could feel my heart beating and this knot in my chest like I’m about to get caught. I feel like I’ve, I’ve had that knot in my chest my whole life.

Wow. Like, I always felt like I’m about to get caught. And I learned how to carry that knot of just being, “Hmm, be cool, be cool.” Living on the edge. Oh, but yes. And it wasn’t until in recovery that I remember feeling that, “Wait a minute, that’s not there.” That had to be an adjustment too. I mean, I hear that about people, like they get sober and then they’re like they can’t deal with the, uh, peace.

[00:21:00] That’s called serenity. Well, I don’t like it. It’s too quiet. Yeah. We don’t like that shit. Yeah. Okay. So when, so that’s amazing that you were just like, “I’m out.” Mm-hmm. So you’re just on your own, not afraid of risk. Um- Yep. Uh, that is me … you find a way to get an education. Yeah. And- I did a junior college.

Back then it was $3 a unit, so I picked up a job at 7-Eleven and, yeah, started- Wow … chip, chipping away. And, uh, so you’re essentially on your own. Did you have any adult, adults looking out for you? Uh, there was… Like, I, I lived at my grandparents for a little while, get my footing, and then I found a roommate and I, I loved the idea of living on my own and trying to be self-sufficient.

Um- … I remember taking a lot of classes. I started off aerospace engineering and went biochemistry and I kept changing, but I came across this one class. It was a EMT, emergency medical technician. And, uh, with this certificate, I could be a hero, and I remember feeling like I could save [00:22:00] someone. Yeah.

And with that certificate, I heard that there was a, um, clamatory fire department with a fire rescue rig up, back up in northern California was hiring. And so when I turned 18, got up there and I was able to join the fire department That’s amazing at 18 years old 18 years old, you start off as a volunteer, and you get to go on calls, and you get your radio, and, you know, you get to really go towards the action.

You know? You get the vehicle over the embankment and the Jaws of Life and all this cool gear you get to play with, and you get to actually be a hero. And ah, it was so feeding. That’s amazing. The guys and the girls you work with, it was just part of a team. And- Two years in … yeah, two years into that I remember a lot of times we’d get on a call, and you’re, like, hoping the medics get there, like the ambulance.

“Oh, here it goes. Oh, here they go.” And here they come code three, and they show up, and those guys had the jumpsuits and all the trauma gear, and they’d work the patient up, and they’d go code three [00:23:00] back to the hospital. And so I transferred over to an ambulance service, Northern Six Ambulance, worked for them for two years.

Loved sleeping in the bunkhouse, loved that, that my team’s waiting, and me and one other person are going to save the day, and it was, again, just being the hero. Yeah. Totally addicted to that adrenaline rush. Yeah. Two years into that, I was really, looking at law enforcement. Those guys…

There were a lot of calls we couldn’t go into the house because it was a domestic dispute and the scene wasn’t safe. So we’re waiting for the cops to show up, and they could kick in the door, and they could bust skulls and drag out the bad guy. They had faster cars. They had guns. So I started taking, like, all my law enforcement classes, my, you know, advanced driving certs and all these things to transfer to a sheriff’s office that was hiring.

And before I could do that, my chief pulls me aside and goes, “Dice, what are you doing, man? You’re just, you’re jumping all over the place.” Mm-hmm. I said, “Hey, you know, I’m just trying to be all I can be.” Like, [00:24:00] what… I said, “Well, what’s the top of the food-” That’s a good problem … “What’s the top of the food chain?”

And he didn’t think twice. He said, “That’s a Navy SEAL.” And I was like, “All right, I’ll do that.” And I went down to the Navy recruiter the next day, and I signed up for a, it’s called the delayed enlistment program, where they give you six months to get in shape, and I signed up to be a corpsman on a SEAL team.

And my recruiter did not put that down on the application. He put an engineman on a SEAL team, which is a… If you look at a cross-section of a ship, a corpsman would work somewhere towards the sunlight. An engineman would work down in the bowels of the ship where it’s 130 degrees and double hearing protection, and it’s a horrible place to work.

So that recruiter kinda screwed me over, but I, I got in the Navy. I made it to BUD/S, made it through training, got to the SEAL teams, and again, I found this awesome group of guys, and our job was to be a hero. But there was one major change joining the Navy. [00:25:00] Before, the guys would drink and hang out, but when I joined the Navy, it was like my drinking turned pro.

It was part of like the, the tradition, the honor. I mean, it was, there was how much you could drink and you can hold your own and all the, the cheers and everything. And if you had a bad day, I could pull out a flask and I could be there for you. I mean, it was… The utility that alcohol is used in the military for everything, to advance, to if you got in trouble, if you got separated, if you got, if anything happened, it’s the solution.

And I loved having a solution in the form of a flask for any situation. So I embraced drinking wholeheartedly when I joined the Navy. It was like almost it was issued to me. “Here, Nick, for your emotional issues, here’s some alcohol,” yeah. That’s wild. Did you have any reservations of turning out like your dad?

Early on, I, because of my dad, I stayed away from weed, I stayed away from coke, I stayed away from ecstasy as I got exposed to it in my early teenage years. [00:26:00] And so also working for the fire department ambulance, they drug test you, so that was easy. But alcohol was kinda okay. I didn’t see it as the same thing.

So because of my dad, I had stayed away from drugs, the drugs other than alcohol. Mm-hmm. But in the Navy Alcohol was the only drug I was allowed to do, and I embraced it Okay. Yes. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So tell me a little bit about, maybe this is where the SEAL stories come in. Did you get deployed?

You got to… I know you, you said you, uh, served with Jocko Willink and- Yes, got deployed. Uh, yeah, Jocko and I- … and his son and- … were at SEAL Team 2 together. That’s crazy. And that’s what Jocko do. That, he’s scary now, but guys, but back then, there was, at SEAL Team 2, if you got in trouble, if you were a shitbag, the penalty was two minutes in the Milvan with Jocko.

That was the punishment. Two minutes in what? In the Milvan. A Milvan’s like a big Conex box. You know, it’s a big lockable shipping container. Oh. And if you got in trouble, the penalty was they’re gonna throw you in that Milvan with Jocko and lock [00:27:00] the door. That was- And you guys had to fight it out? Listen, we were so scared of that happening.

There’s no way we’re gonna let that happen. It was like this implied threat when I checked into the SEAL team. Um- Did you ever see that happen? Did you ever see anybody get locked in there with him? I, no, I never saw it happen- I would have loved that … but I was scared as heck of it. Yeah. But he was, he was a scary guy back then.

He was fast, and thank goodness I was faster. On long runs I would, he’d be like, “I’m gonna get you if you… I’m gonna kick your ass if I pass you.” And I, he would never let him pass me. But yeah, he, he was, he was a super soldier even back then, man. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Props. I know he went on the Tim Ferriss podcast and he w- he was described as, like, the scariest I know.

So it’s like that, that checks out. Yeah, he looks like a- The scariest among scary men, yes. Yeah. He, he really does look like a action figure. But, uh- Mm-hmm … to be fair, so do you. Oh, man. Um, that’s wild. So were, were you actually, were you ever deployed with him? Uh, no, we were on, sister, called sister [00:28:00] platoon, so we did deploy.

Okay. We had different missions over there. Okay … and this is, let me preface all this. My first deployment out there was pre-9/11 We were not at war. Ah, okay. And so it’s a different tempo. Whole different. Whole different tempo. Lots of training. The good schools were few and far between. It felt like you’re a plumber who’s wor- trained to work on pipes their entire career, but they’ve never actually seen a pipe.

Ah. So we were, like, ready to put me to… I mean, there was so much that’s getting spent up. You’re, “Something’s gonna happen,” and nothing happens. And, “Something’s gonna happen,” and nothing happens. And if I’m honest, I’m the type of guy, if you don’t give me a mission, I’m gonna make one up. You know? I, I’m gonna go out and I’m gonna go just get myself into mischief.

And, uh- Uh-oh. Tell me about the mischief … it was… Oh, uh, we were out- Everybody wants to hear the mischief. Where did you get deployed? Are you allowed to say? Uh, yeah. It was, my first deployment was a med cruise out in the Mediterranean. And, uh, at one point we’re doing some training at the Rock of Gibraltar, the most southern-est tip of Spain.

[00:29:00] Yeah. And what’s neat about the Rock of Gibraltar, if people aren’t familiar with it, it’s this giant rock right there on the Strait of Gibraltar, and it’s it’s a very strategic position because it kinda covers all the traffic going through the, the Mediterranean out to the Atlantic, you know? It, it’s a very advantageous place to, to, to own.

And, and you’d think it would belong to Spain because it’s the southernmost tip of Spain, but no, England own it. Brit- it’s English. They own it. Yeah. Yeah. And so there’s this, this kind… You can tell there’s some animosity between them being there occupying part of Spain. And I could feel it when I was stationed there, and we were doing all our tunnel warfare training in the Rock of Gibraltar, which is, you know, you learn very quickly not to get in a gunfight in a tunnel because there’s only so much you can do, but they do spend a lot of time training you up how to do it properly.

So we’re spending a lot of time on the Rock of Gibraltar, in and out of it and all around it, and my buddy, his name’s Suef, and [00:30:00] I, uh… I’m diving you out, Suef, sorry, but it’s been almost 30 years. I think you’re fine. It’s fine. Yeah. Um- He won’t hear this. I’m like, yeah. And I said, “Hey, let’s go for a run, man.”

And we go for a run, and we go all the way up to the top of the rock. And you get up there at the very top of the Rock of Gibraltar, and it’s beautiful. You can see Africa. It’s just a beautiful v- view. And, um, when you get up to the very top, there’s this huge British flag, giant flag waving proudly up for all of Spain to see.

Oh. And I’m looking at it, and I’m saying, “Huh.” And I’m always a sucker for rooting for the little guy, you know? And so I’m looking at this, and, uh, I say, “Hey, Suef, cover me.” And he’s like, you know, he’s wearing his running outfit. He’s like, “What? What are you talking about?” And I, I turn over to the flag, and I rip out my spider coil, and I cut the rope, and I start pulling down the flag.

And it’s, you know, the flag looks small up there, but as it comes down it gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. And as it’s coming down, I can hear these alarms going, “Brr, brr, brr.” And I look [00:31:00] down the hill, way down at the base, and I can see these flashing lights. It’s like a, a quick reaction force has been launched in response to this, you know, this huge thing we’re doing.

Oh, my gosh. And so I bring the flag down, and I wad it up as much as I can, and I wrap it under my shirt, and I yell to Suif, “Run!” And we start running down the hill. And, you know, the, the road crisscrosses as it goes up the hill, and we’re just kind of beelining straight down. And we see a minivan coming down the hill, and we wave it to stop.

And, and, you know, it’s a guy saying, “What’s up, guys?” And we, and we say, “Hey, we’re late for a meeting. Can you please give us a ride down the hill? We really gotta get back.” He says, “Not a problem. Jump in.” Right? And so we get in the, the minivan, and we just lay on the ground. Like we’re tired. And he’s looking at us, and as we, we’re looking up at him, we can see all the lights of the response vehicles whizzing by the bus.

And he brings us down out of the, the base and through the gates of the compound, and we thank him so much. We get out of the minivan, and [00:32:00] we make a beeline back to our barracks, and we stash the flag, and we sit there like we’re, like we’re cleaning our gear. Trying to look innocent. And our chief walks by, and he’s…

I mean, at this point, the whole base is on alert, and there’s just, cops or soldiers everywhere. And my chief goes, “I don’t know what’s going on, but I’m pretty sure it has something to do with you two.” And we’re like, “No, Chief, we’re absolutely… We’re, there’s nothing going on here.” Innocent, we’re innocent.

And he, he leaves us alone, and the, the scene dies down. We complete our training, and before we leave the Rock of Gibraltar, it’s a common team guy, cool guy thing, is they get out on the tarmac with the giant rock in the background, and everyone gets out there, and they do a cool team guy pose. You know, like, “Ah.”

Mm-hmm. And we all kind of go, “Hooyah,” and they t- take a picture. And so Suif and I make our way towards the back of the whole platoon lined up there, and just before they take the picture- Oh, yeah … we open the flag up behind the whole platoon. So we have all our officers in charge, our chiefs and everyone [00:33:00] going like this with the flag in the background.

They snap the picture, and this is old school Polaroid. There’s no digital image. And then Suif and I wad up the flag, and put it away, and stand there like nothing happened. So that picture doesn’t get developed till we get back stateside and go to a one-hour developing store. And so we have this national treasure that’s been stolen off, and our, all our leadership is there ch- posing in front of it.

Oh my gosh. And that was our insurance that if we went down, everyone was going down with us. You are nuts. Um- So is this one of the stories that the lawyers told you not to put in the book? Oh, yeah. That’s what I had to fight with to put in. I was like, “Come on.” Um- That’s a great story. Oh, you are crazy. You is crazy.

Oh my gosh. That’s a combination of, you know, risk, being pro-risk, but also not really having a clear sense of boundaries or big picture. I mean, we could have- Yeah … easily gotten our entire SEAL [00:34:00] command kicked out of that training venue forever. We- Right … there were so many other ramifications that, m- I wasn’t even allowing myself to look at.

And- Yeah … that, there’s a clear pattern of not being able to see big pictures throughout my career as an addict alcoholic. Yeah. That’s crazy. So when did when did you start… You know, as they say in 12 step, it’s fun, fun with problems, and then it’s just problems. I kinda wanna fast-track you to the- Sure

just problems, ’cause I do wanna spend a little time on, on talking about your book. Yeah. Um, well, for me, you know, SEAL teams, I knew I was drinking a lot. And then as you get comfortable, I began to dabble in some coke and ecstasy. I wasn’t getting, I wasn’t getting written up for it or caught, but I could feel the writing on the wall that if I kept doing this, sooner or later I would.

And the, the question of stopping wasn’t even a, a question for me. And so when it came time to re-enlist, it was like, stay in and get busted, or do I get out? And so I got out. I, I, I gave up literally my passion to be a SEAL [00:35:00] so I could drink- Mm-hmm … and use how I wanted to. You know? It was like, It was crazy how addiction had blinded me and had robbed me of a career path.

Yeah. I became a private contractor, like a hired gun, and I went back overseas several times. Had a lot of trouble re- coming back stateside. I would deploy again and had a lot of trouble being okay in the, in the States without drinking or using more. Yeah. So my addiction spiraled, uh, get, got fairly out of control.

I remember switching from coke to meth because it made good financial sense, you know, it, it was cheaper, and that quickly spiraled into my health degrading. Mm. And I, I ended up, uh, when I hit bottom, I think I checked into rehab at 130 pounds. Um- Ooh. I know. Just skin and bones, and- How, how tall are you?

Uh, 6’2″. So it was definitely- Yeah. I, um- 130 pounds. Yeah. Is that the picture you showed me before where you was like- Yeah, that’s a picture that I, I keep on my desk to show me [00:36:00] that, hey, that life’s still available. You know, I, I, I’m here today because I’m not choosing that. And so I keep that picture on my desk that I look at every day.

Yes. Oh my gosh. I’m surprised you’re so… Okay, that’s, uh, that’s really scary. I mean, I’m, I’m 5’3″ and 130 pounds. I’m a little fluffy right now. It was scary. But I cannot imagine somebody being 6’2″ and 130 pounds. Yeah, skin and bones. That’s wild. Yeah. And, you know, trying to still, to not be in denial. Like, I’m just running a mile, you know?

I’m, I… And you look in the mirror just the right way, and you kind of convince- Yeah … yourself that you’re still okay. Yeah, denial is strong. Ooh, so much denial. Denial is so strong. But that’s me. So what ha- what happened, what was the catalyst for you getting sober? I think a big one was back when that H1N1, the swine flu pandemic came through.

Oh, yeah. You remember that? Well, my, at the time, I was married and I had a small son, Ronan, and he was, two years old in daycare, and I was on a three-day bender tweaking [00:37:00] out of my mind. And I get a call from daycare, and the, I li- listen to the voicemail, and the voicemail says, “There’s been an exposure of the H1N1, um, virus- Mm

at the daycare. We’re having all the parents come and pick up their kids.” And in my head, I was like, “My son’s in trouble. I need to save him,” you know? “Okay, let me just, let me get my shit together.” And then, you know, my wife’s calling and it’s going to voicemail, and the daycare’s calling and going to voicemail, and my wife’s calling, and I’m, I’m trying to put this pipe down and get out of there.

I need to save my son, and for three hours, I couldn’t get out of that room. Oh. And I remember turning off my phone and just using- And that was when the spirit, I could hear it break, and I stopped looking in the mirror, and I hated who I’d become. I just hated. My whole life I trained to be a hero, and I couldn’t do that anymore.

I couldn’t not even for my son, I could not do that. And that was- Yeah … that was the end. That was me admitting that I was [00:38:00] a, I was an alcoholic. And- And so I ended up in treatment 12 step, didn’t- Is that when you went to, did you say it was called the Farley Center? The Farley Center in Williamsburg, Virginia.

Yep. Mm-hmm. Um, I randomly picked it out of a phone book. There was no rhyme or reason. Uh, my therapist there, his name was Dre Summers, and, for some universal line and this guy could see through my bullshit, and it was a, I think one of the– On day six, my insurance said I had to be transferred out of treatment, and I was, I was so angry because by then I, I wanted to stay.

I was like I know I need this. If you kick me out- Oh, no … I’m gonna, I’m gonna relapse for sure.” And so I asked my therapist for a four-hour pass, and he was very skeptical. He thought I was gonna go rob a bank or something, ’cause I needed to come up with $9,000 to stay in treatment. And, uh- Mm. I know. And so I, I told him I wasn’t gonna rob a bank.

I had my car. I wanted to sell it for money for rehab. And so he [00:39:00] gave me the pass, and I, I went to CarMax, and I sold my car, and I remember standing in the parking lot going- Mm-hmm … “I don’t have to go back. You know, this $9,000, this is a good run. I don’t have to go back.” And contemplating not going back to treatment.

But something in me wanted, you know, wanted to be someone different. Like, I hated that guy so much. This might be my ticket out. And I went back to rehab, and I endorsed the back of the check, and I said, “Will you guys accept this?” ‘Cause I didn’t trust myself cashing it. And they took the check with the signature on the back.

Wow. And so I stayed in treatment. And that was literally my, my, in my, you know, step one, my sponsor asked me to write when did you, you know, know you were an addict? And I wrote about when I was my, left my son in the daycare, and that’s when I knew. And step two, he said, you know, “When did you become aware, you know, when did hope come back into your life?

When did you get that?” I said, “Those first several days in treatment, I remember this shift taking place [00:40:00] where maybe this will work, and this little bit of a sense of I, I need to change, and this might do it.” And that was my step two moment. And then for step three, he asked me, “When did you become willing to take suggestions?”

And it was me standing in the parking lot with that check. And when I decided to come back to Farley and give it, that was me doing whatever it took. Whatever you told me to do, I was willing to do. I was just gonna say willingness to go to any length for your sobriety. Any length. There was one therapist there at the Farley Center who said that, uh, to this day, I don’t know, really know where she got it from, but she said that when I was a kid, I never learned how to self-soothe.

And so she wanted me to go to Walmart and get a teddy bear, and for the rest of my time in treatment, wanted me to carry the teddy bear around my, wherever I went. And so I went out to Walmart. I didn’t understand this. I was very like, “I’m a Navy SEAL. We don’t do teddy bears.” And she just said, “That’s the suggestion.”

And so I got the teddy bear. I put a little arm, [00:41:00] skull and crossbone armband on him to make him look tough. But I carried it all through my time in treatment, just walking around with this teddy bear in my How long were you in treatment for? I did 34 days in treatment- Okay … and then transferred to an inta- inpatient, intensive outpatient program, and then, jumped in the back pocket of my sponsor and, you know, the next year was all step work.

Yeah. That’s beautiful. Yeah. H- did it, how long did it take you to get through the steps? Uh, it took, I went as fast and as hard as I could, and it took me, like, 14 months. Yep, 14 months. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, if you really do it, the thorough- It takes what it takes for everyone, you know? Yeah. It does.

Yeah. I’ve seen people do it in a year, sometimes. Listen, I, the only thing I know of my, all my years of sobriety is I don’t know what’s right for anybody else. Yeah. But I do believe that things happen on God’s timing. Mm-hmm. Like, however it happens, I guess that’s how it was supposed to happen for you, whether it’s six months, uh, [00:42:00] two years.

Exactly. I think my h- my husband’s been sober over, you know, almost 40 years and he didn’t do a single step for his first year of sobriety. Wow. Yep. Yeah. When I watched my wife, she has, I think she’s 11 years now. When I watched her go through the first step, the step work, I was like, “You’re doing it wrong.”

You’re doing it all wrong. I had to shut up and talk to my sponsor. You’re not doing it my way. I know. I had to let it, let it happen. I could not- It’s scary, though. Yes, but I was worried- I get that it’s scary … I was worried that she was gonna come out the other side and, “Who are you? Why am I with you?”

Totally- I know. Yeah … changed. And yeah, but it worked out. Did you meet in recovery? Uh, no. I, when we met I was attending classes at Oldham University and she was my professor.

Dude, you are scandalous on a multitude of levels. I know. I love that about you. Oh my. I love that. Oh my God. Yeah, I g- I got with my husband when I was five months sober and he [00:43:00] was, like, five or six years sober. Oh my goodness. 13th ever. 30, 30-plus years later, so far, so well. Wow. I know. Yep. You’re the story that messes up the curve.

I know, yeah. That’s right. But we definitely stayed together by doing the steps, for sure. Yes. We would do, uh, inventories. Like, I’d go to my sponsor and I’d be like, “Bobby did this and Bobby did that,” and she’d be like, “I don’t sponsor him, so we’re gonna talk about your part.” That’s so cool. Uh, and we have a common language to talk to each other.

Yeah. That is so, and our kids, we have five kids together, and I can hear 12-step recovery in the way they talk to their friends. Yeah. Oh, it’s such a gift. It is such a gift. That’s amazing. Hey, let’s talk about your book a little bit. Sure. Um, so does, is it focused on, what kind of solutions did you feel like were, was important to put in the book?

Just a side note, we have been talking about my book this whole time. I know. Yeah. Yeah. No, my book, what I did, guys, um, I endeavored to [00:44:00] make a self-help recovery book- Uh, hidden in an amazing, crazy, wild, halfway illegal story. And it is, it’s my life, how it unfolded. A- and you will truly not like the character in the story.

You will not- Mm. You… I was not a good guy. I did a lot of- Okay. This is not a hero, shoot ’em up, bang, bang, Navy SEAL book. This is a guy who blew up his life. You know, really just blew up everything he held dear, turned into someone he swore he’d never be, and then how he found his way out again. So- Okay

in my book, I chronicle all of that, my journey through the 12 steps, my journey into recovery, my journey back to school, my associate’s, undergraduate, master’s, PhD. And in that journey, looking back at 12-step recovery and go, “How did this happen? Wait a minute. There’s more here going on than I realized.”

And finding the embedded theory found in 12-step recovery. Mm. And then endeavoring to teach other therapists, “Listen, this is stuff you already know [00:45:00] how to do, they’re already doing in 12-step recovery. If you wanna better support your patients, learn this pattern. Help them in these s- six ways,” you know?

And so I really endeavored to kinda educate modern therapists to what’s going on in 12-step recovery. And so, uh, the, I call it the holistic change model, and it’s a, it’s a way of looking at 12-step recovery through a therapist lens, you know? You- Okay … you’re gonna get out, y- the first three steps are all stages of change.

Are they ready to receive a message of recovery? Steps four and five are narrative therapy. Steps six, seven, eight, and nine, it’s all cognitive behavioral therapy. Okay. And steps 10, 11, and 12 is e- existential therapy. And if you follow that pattern, you can see how 12-step recovery, I think there’s over 220 different 12-step fellowships in the world, and they cover, you know, behavioral addictions, substance abuse addictions.

Yeah. They cover everything. How can so many things that ail the [00:46:00] human condition be worked out with one 12-step format? And it’s because it follows this curve of recovery- Interesting … and redemption. I love that. I, I feel like there’s, um, a lot of people who actually build their entire careers off of bashing 12 steps, which makes me insane.

It makes me insane. And I get that there are some parts of it that are problematic. You know, I, I wrote a book about 12 steps to sort of- Mm-hmm … you know, clear up the misconceptions. But I, I, um, just, you know, you and I both love, like, we get it. We, we- Yeah … see the magic out of it, and it’s, I think it’s important.

I love that you’re addressing the professionals because they are often sort of like the gateway into a process- Right … that people can do often for free. Yes. Not, not everybody has the res- like, when I blew up my life, I didn’t have any money to go to therapy. I didn’t even know about rehab 32 years ago.

Exactly. So. Yeah. [00:47:00] Yeah. And 12 step recovery is in every language on every continent all over the world. Yes. And now because of Zoom, it’s anywhere you are. If you’re- Anywhere … you have kids at home, no worries, you can stay at home. If you’re in the hospital, you can go to a meeting. Yeah. If you’re in Bangladesh, guess what?

You got all kinds of meetings. Yeah. Uh. All kinds of meetings too. I think that’s one of the things that people don’t understand, that there’s different types of meetings. There’s, uh, women only, there’s men only. There’s, there’s- Whatever. There’s, um- … crystal meth anonymous meetings. There’s pill- Yeah

anonymous meetings. There’s, yeah. But there’s like speaker meetings, topic discussion- Sh- … literature meetings. You could just get with other people. Underearners anonymous meetings. Yeah. Yeah. There, it is so wild. Yeah. And get this, here’s two more cool things. Remember when Australia was on fire and it was all burning?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You can attend a meeting in Australia and help support them through recovery. Mm. Or if you just enjoy the Australian accent, you can attend their online [00:48:00] meetings. Yeah. When New York was on lockdown, I could log into New York, into meetings in New York, and be part of their recovery process.

Yes. When I got my 10-year medallion, I logged into my online home group, and my mom logged in from Northern California. Oh. My sister logged in from San Diego, and my brother logged in from Maui, and we were all in the same meeting at the same time. That’s amazing. Isn’t that awesome? I love that. That is really beautiful.

Mm-hmm. Listen, we could, we could obviously chat like forever. Oh, I gotta come back. Please invite me. Please. I, this is so much fun. Yeah, anytime you wanna come back. Absolutely. I, I would love to have that ’cause we could, uh, dive into some more solutions. I know you have sort of presentations and things that you do.

Yes. Um, so we’ll get into it. We’ll do part two. But where can people find you? Okay. Um, well there’s a couple other things. I’m actually working on a TED Talk. If you go to O- my YouTube page, Dr. Dice, Dr. Tony Dice. Okay. All my social media is #drdice. I, I’m always putting out content on emotional compulsivity, on [00:49:00] new- Mm-hmm

ways of looking at recovery. I, I’m trying to be very active and trying to get this message of recovery out there as wide as I can. Uh, I’m also really- Yeah … and I’m gonna s- highlight this one area high performers. You know, whether it be military, law enforcement, first responders, high performers, there is a lot of this emotional compulsivity, #addiction, involved in people who have, y- you know, they’re either addicted to their job, they’re addicted to the gentleman, they’re addicted to winning.

And all of that before their life blows up is very rewarding a- and is very approved by society, but doesn’t mean you’re having trouble at home, doesn’t mean you’re having trouble inside with identity, it doesn’t mean you’re having trouble with your kids. All those things can be still looked at and addressed before your whole life gets blown up.

So- Yeah … I really am trying to draw attention to the different ways in which we use the word addiction. I think it’s a much- Yeah … a much broader definition is required Yeah, absolutely. I always say [00:50:00] that the purpose of addiction is distraction. It’s distraction from those feelings that we want to avoid- Mm-hmm.

Yes … mostly. But I really appreciate addressing the high performers ’cause it’s so easy to delude ourselves that everything’s fine if you still have the job, and the money, and the car, and the house, and all those things. Yeah, success. Yes. Yeah, but typically your relationships are in shambles though, so it comes at the cost.

And when our relationships are in shambles- Mm-hmm … it can lead to a very dark place. Oh, gosh. And, you know, I’m not gonna poo-poo addicts and alcoholics. To me, they’re the most interesting people to talk to. They have the most dynamic, and if you look throughout the pages of history, history is made by addicts and alcoholics.

You, you, you know, you look at the people who built the pyramids, I’m sure they weren’t balanced individuals, and no offense, Elon Musk. A lot of writers, musicians. There, there’s a lot of people out there, high performers, that have a lot of unbalance or addiction that they’re dealing with, that ob- obsessive [00:51:00] compulsive nature of them helps them change the world.

I, I- Yeah … yes. And I think for many of us it just needs to be harnessed. Find some semblance- Yeah … of balance in your life and you can still achieve amazing things. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Workaholism is my favorite addiction.

Yes. Yes. Um- Anyway, listen, thank you so much for joining me today. Absolutely. I, I really enjoyed- Oh, I did too … our chat with you today. Thank you so much, and we’ll have you back for round two. Yes. Yeah, when the book comes out, we’ll talk about it, sign a copy. It’ll be awesome. It’ll be fun. That’d be great.

Very great. Thanks so much. Thank you. Take care.

What if the very thing you trained your whole life to become – the identity you bled for, the title you earned – turned out to be the exact thing addiction used against you? And what happens when a man built to be a hero realizes he can no longer save his own son?

Dr. Tony Dice is a Navy SEAL veteran, PhD, and author of After the Trident: A Navy SEAL’s Battle with Secrets, Shame, and Addiction. With 16 years of sobriety, Tony rebuilt his life from a crystal meth addiction that left him at 130 pounds at 6’2″ – and turned that rock bottom into a second career as a therapist, researcher, and recovery advocate. He served alongside Jocko Willink at SEAL Team 2, gave up his SEAL career to protect his drug use, and eventually found his way through a 12-step program he now helps therapists understand on an entirely new level.

The Identity That Addiction Destroys

Tony grew up in extreme isolation – one of eight kids, homeschooled, living in a mountain town called Horse Creek with a population of 89, with an alcoholic father whose moods ruled the household. He ran away at 16, earned his GED, and began chasing the only thing that made him feel whole: being the hero. Firefighter, EMT, ambulance medic – he kept climbing until someone told him the top of the food chain was a Navy SEAL. He signed up the next day.

But in the military, alcohol was practically issued along with the uniform – it was how you bonded, how you coped, how you proved you belonged. And for Tony, whose drug use eventually escalated to crystal meth, the addiction quietly dismantled everything the SEAL identity had built. “Addiction had blinded me and robbed me of a career path,” he says. He got out of the Navy not because he wanted to – but because staying meant getting caught. He chose his addiction over his dream.

The Moment Everything Cracked

Tony’s rock bottom came during the H1N1 pandemic scare. He was three days into a meth binge when the daycare called: his two-year-old son Ronan had been exposed to the virus, and all parents needed to come pick up their kids. For three hours, Tony tried to put the pipe down and walk out the door. For three hours, he couldn’t do it. His wife’s calls went to voicemail. The daycare’s calls went to voicemail. He turned off his phone.

“My whole life I trained to be a hero, and I couldn’t do that anymore – not even for my son.” That was the moment the denial broke. He checked into the Farley Center in Williamsburg, Virginia, at 130 pounds. On day six, when his insurance cut out, he asked his therapist for a four-hour pass, took the bus to CarMax, sold his car for $9,000, and went back to treatment. Standing in that parking lot with a check in his hand and no way home, he made a choice. He endorsed the check, handed it to the front desk, and stayed.

A New Framework for Understanding Recovery

Tony went on to earn his PhD, and along the way he noticed something remarkable about the 12-step program that had saved his life: it wasn’t just spiritual wisdom – it was clinical psychology, hiding in plain sight. He calls it the Holistic Change Model. Steps 1-3 are stages of change. Steps 4-5 are narrative therapy. Steps 6-9 are cognitive behavioral therapy. Steps 10-12 are existential therapy. Over 220 different 12-step fellowships use this exact structure – and it works because it follows the natural curve of human recovery and redemption. Tony now teaches this framework to therapists so they can better support the patients already doing 12-step work.

And through all of it, one thing has anchored him: gratitude – not as a feeling, but as an action. He has a handcuff key tattooed on his leg with the word “gratitude” on it. “A grateful alcoholic will not drink,” his sponsor told him early on. Tony took that literally. Washing the dishes after dinner, arranging the pillows on the bed in a new pattern every morning so his wife comes home and loves it – everything is an expression of what he gets to have today.

“Gratitude is not just a feeling – it is an action word. And that is what freed me from so much of what I was holding onto.”

Recovery doesn’t require a perfect past – it just requires willingness. Tony Dice went from Navy SEAL to rock bottom to PhD, and what he found along the way is that the 12 steps work precisely because they mirror the deepest truths of human psychology. If you are in the middle of your own fight right now, know this: the program is not asking you to be who you were. It is asking you to find out who you actually are.

Action Items

• Notice how your identity – your job title, your role, your reputation – might be connected to your relationship with substances or compulsive behavior. Recovery often means rebuilding who you are from the inside out.
• Keep a physical reminder of your rock bottom close by. Tony keeps a photo of himself at 130 pounds on his desk every day as a reminder of what is still available if he chooses it.
• Practice gratitude as action, not just a feeling. Washing dishes, making the bed, calling a friend – find one concrete way to express it every single day.
• If you struggle to sit still in early recovery, keep your hands busy. Crocheting, coloring books, or a repetitive gym routine can be legitimate forms of meditation.
• Look up Enjoying the Journey by NA World Services – written in a modern voice and organized by life topic (relationships, money, kids), it is one of the most practical recovery resources available today.
• If you are bored at meetings, take that as a signal – not that the meetings have failed, but that it may be time to level up your recovery work.
• Willingness is the door to step three. You do not have to have it all figured out. You just have to be willing to go to any length.

Resources Mentioned

• After the Trident: A Navy SEAL’s Battle with Secrets, Shame, and Addiction by Dr. Tony Dice –
• Enjoying the Journey – NA World Services (recent publication, organized by life topic)
• Dr. Tony Dice on YouTube: @drdice
• Dr. Tony Dice on social media: #drdice
• Dr. Tony Dice website: bishopdicedefense.com

👊 Additional Resources:

🎁 Free Guide: 30 Tips for Your First 30 Days – With a printable PDF checklist
Grab your copy here: https://www.soberlifeschool.com

☎️ Private Coaching: Make Sobriety Stick – For Sober Curious or abstinence seekers 
https://www.makesobrietystick.com

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Dr. Dykes, thank you so much for joining me today. Oh, it’s my honor to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. Yeah. I saw see you right from the start. I was like, “Navy SEAL, everyone’s gonna wanna hear a story.” Oh, my gosh. Okay. We’ll share. That’s what we’re here for. We’ll, we’ll talk a little bit about that, but we’re gonna talk about your book, After the Trident: A Navy SEAL’s Battle with Secrets, Shame, and Addiction.

I know. I know. I mean, this, half of me thinks this book’s gonna land me in jail. The, the lawyers were like, “You can’t say that.” I’m like, “It’s the truth. It’s the truth.” Yeah. Yeah. And, I think what’s really interesting is what you’ve done afterwards, right? Mm-hmm.

So it’s not just about surviving and overcoming, it’s not about the horror stories of addiction- No … but it’s all the things that you’ve been able to accomplish after that. Oh, yeah. A lot of it’s, many people, especially, high performers, they have an identity, and that’s everything to them.

And one thing you and I both know about addiction is it shatters, it erodes it from the inside, robs you of the honor, and [00:01:00] shatters that identity. And so through recovery, finding my way, finding who I was, and actually realizing there’s so much more to me than just being a Navy SEAL. So that was the big- Yeah

aha moment in my life. That’s … Yeah. We will definitely get into it. I like to do a little game I call the lightning round. Yeah. Which everybody teases me ’cause it’s very slow. But I like to front load the episode with some resources. Okay. So, when it… i, I’m a total book nerd. So were there any books that especially helped you early on in recovery?

Um, yes, there’s a book out there and it’s, and it’s, uh, NA World Literature put it out. It’s one of the more recent publications. It’s called Enjoying the Journey, and it has, uh, recovery segments, but it’s almost like categories. So if you wanna know about sex, if you wanna know about relationships, it’s, it’s grouped like that.

So it’s very useful in early recovery, navigating different phases that you’ll be passing through. So it’s called Enjoying the Journey, [00:02:00] NA World Services puts it out. Love that. I’m sure it covers all the things about, like, raising kids and money and- Yes, yeah, very topical. And it’s actually one of the most recent pieces of literature written.

I think it’s only six or seven years old, so it’s, it’s written in a, in a voice we can understand, ’cause we know, you know- … AA and NA was written back in 1935. No one talks like that anymore. And so it’s easy to relate to. John Barleycorn? Who the hell is John Barleycorn? Exactly. Exactly. No, that’s, that’s really cool.

What about, how long have you been sober? Let’s see. July will be 16 years. Woo-hoo. Congratulations. Thank you. So 16 years ago, it doesn’t sound like this book was out. What books really helped you, like, in the very beginning? You know, my, I was a, my drug of choice towards the end was crystal meth, so my, I was like this vibrating little mess.

And it was- See, you were reading a lot I wasn’t reading. It was hard to get through a, like a recovery meeting reading- Yeah … you know? Like- I get it … it was, everything was hard. Yeah. So some of the basic, basic things that I [00:03:00] was given, like, read this chapter in the big book, was a monumental task.

Okay. So yeah, that, early on, that’s all I could hold onto. Thank you for sharing that, because I, I don’t think people talk about that often enough, of just about how squirrely we are- Mm-hmm … in the beginning. Like, not everybody was raised to be a book nerd. And maybe we just take it piecemeal. I’ll share a secret inside note I don’t tell anybody.

Um- Ooh. Early recovery, I was so hard for me to stay in my seat. I’d get up and get coffee, and I’d walk around the back of the meeting. Yeah. And I was just so antsy, and my sponsor was like, “Just sit down. Whatever it takes, stay in your seat,” you know? And so I’m sitting there, and I look over and I see a little old lady crocheting.

Yeah. And I remember my mom had taught me to crochet when I was a kid. You know, being a good addict, I, I went out and I shoplifted some yarn. And then- … I sat down in the meeting and I started crocheting, and I would crochet so hard I had like a bead of sweat. Yeah. And I could make a whole scarf in one meeting.

[00:04:00] That is so cool. And I did that my whole first year. The crazy epilogue to that story is that I’m the oldest of eight brothers and sisters. Half of them in rec- are in recovery, and I didn’t know this till later, but all of us crocheted our first year in recovery. We instinctively all regressed to something we could keep- We, we could find comfort in.

So that’s, uh, it’s crazy. Yeah. It’s so funny because I remember I, I’m a knitter too. I actually crochet. I, I’m a crocheter. Yes. I can’t, I can’t do the knitting. But I can, but I won’t. But the i- the idea of when your hands are busy, then your ears can listen. So I’ve seen people do, bring, um, like, coloring books.

Yes. Adult coloring books. There’s, like, adult col- Yeah. Adult coloring books. Yeah. People bring coloring books. Or I just love that there, there are so many different things, but I was part of the crocheters club too. You as a dude- I know … did you catch so much smoke for that? Well, you know, I did go out and I got the biggest crochet hook I could find.

It [00:05:00] was, like, as thick as my finger now. A manly one. A manly crochet hook, and I would get, like, five strands of yarn at one time, and I’d make these huge scarves. So I tried to make it as masculine as pos- As possible. Yeah. I don’t know why, when that became, like, a woman’s thing, but- Back in the olden days, you know- Yeah.

Back then- … men used to do it all the time. You gotta do what you gotta do. Well, well listen, I love that. That is probably the one of the most helpful tips that I’ve heard in a very long time. Very unique. Over your sobriety- Mm-hmm … over the last 16 years, would you say that you had a quote or there, a theme of your sobriety?

And I’ll buy you a little time by saying obviously mine is, like, one day at a time, but also, like, just to find the balance- Yeah … and recommit. That was kinda my, over the last 16 years. I get that. Totally get that. Mine’s easy. Um, it’s, I think within the first couple years it became the bedrock for my recovery, and it was something I heard in a [00:06:00] meeting and I brought up with my sponsor, and he said that, you know, a grateful alcoholic will not drink.

And gratitude is the key. And I have a large like, a handcuff key tattooed on my leg where it says gratitude on it, because that’s what freed me from so much- Mm … of what I was holding onto. And if- Yeah … if I can find gratitude in my life- On a daily basis in everything I do, ’cause gratitude’s an action word, you know?

My wife makes me a wonderful dinner, I am washing those dishes with gratitude, and I’m cleaning the kitchen, and it’s my way of showing gratitude, you know? And for everything with my kids, it’s the same. It’s all, how can I express my gratitude for having my life today? Yes. Grat- listen, that is, like, the, the magic, uh, component right there.

Mm-hmm. I feel like it’s so underrated too, ’cause it’s free and it’s easy. Yes, it is. But it’s important. And it’s, you know, it’s not just a feeling. It’s action. Yeah. It’s an action word, yeah. I love that in the program it’s all about action, right? Do you have a regular self-care routine? I, I’m gonna [00:07:00] guess yes, but, and it can be, like, a morning routine.

Do you have, like, a weekly set of meetings, annual retreats? What does that look like for you? Good call. Yes, my normal, early on I was a meeting maker. You know, my sponsor said, “If you’re not at home, you’re not at work, your ass had better be in a meeting.” And so I would if I didn’t have anything to do that day, it’d be three, four, five, six meetings a day.

And, and I literally hit over 1,000 meetings my first year. I was just obsessed with going to meetings. That has since leveled off. As life b- gave me the different gifts of living a life of recovery, I’ve gotten to where I have two, sometimes three meetings a week is where my resting point is.

Yeah. Uh, things that I do, uh, on a daily. I, yep, make the bed. I have found with my wife that if I arrange the pillows in a certain magical way on the bed, she loses her shit and she thinks it’s awesome. So that’s something that I do every morning. I try to arrange it in a little different pattern every day, and she just loses her shit when she comes home from work.

So I, I do that. I, uh, I, early on I tried meditation. I really put a lot of [00:08:00] effort into it, and I had a lot of trouble with meditation. I really, I would close my eyes and all I could hear was, like, screaming in my head. Like I, I had a- Wow … a lot of trouble and it was very disturbing. And, um, I had a- really good therapist who recommended other forms of meditation. Yeah. And so, uh, running, I like to run. That’s a way for me to zone out. And in the gym I do this, this German strength building workout where it’s 10 sets of 10. So I literally am counting to 10 over and over again hundreds of times.

Mm-hmm. And that’s my meditation. And- I love that. I do that too. I, I have a day, um, my husband and I do weights five days a week, but one of my days I call it 10s. Yes. Right? 10 pushups, 10 pull-downs- Yep. Okay … 10 dips, and 10, I’m doing leg extensions right now. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a form of meditation.

Yeah. You just zone out and go with it. Yeah. And so on the daily I do three things for my recovery: call my sponsor, talk to some sponsees, go to a meeting. Those are my, I have to make sure in my [00:09:00] forefront I’m taking three actions towards my recovery. I love that. So I, you know what’s interesting to me is the idea that I hear people like, oh, at meetings afterwards, like, “I’m not getting anything out of it.”

And newsflash It’s so that we can give back, right? Mm-hmm. And every once in a while I’ll feel like I get something out of it, but I think people get confused as to why people with long-term recovery keep going. I know. A- a- and my sponsor pointed out to me, if you’re ever bored in a meeting, that’s a big red flag that you have stopped growing.

The meetings have been exactly the same since 1935. There’s always the old-timer in the back saying the same shit. You have the middle person in the middle who’s gone kinda crazy and still shares kinda crazy. You have the newcomer in the front who says, “Ah,” lost and saying weird stuff. All that exists every meeting.

A- and, for me working my first step to my second step, and now I’m seeing all three of those people differently, or how [00:10:00] much I’ve grown. Yeah. The old-timer’s message means something different. Fourth step, fifth step, sixth step, through my recovery. And then once I’m, I’ve gotten through the 12 steps, doesn’t mean I stop growing.

Mm-hmm. I have found that if I ever ran to a place where I feel bored or this is getting monotonous, that’s a red flag for me to, hey, I need to level up my recovery game. Um, there’s some cool things I’ve done with other people’s recovery. Like there was a really neat… I’m not gonna dine out his recovery, but he’s just a, he’s got such a strong message.

I asked him, “Hey, is there a way we could walk each other through those steps? Like, you do your way with me and I’ll…” And we did this through the 12 step with each other, and that was eye-opening how, you know, it’s like that cross-pollination. So there’s other ways to continue to grow in recovery, and I, I still look forward to my home group meetings.

I still look forward to many of my meetings because it’s, I call it the best show in town for a dollar. You know, it’s, there’s a lot going on. A dollar? You gotta [00:11:00] be, do two bucks now. Two bucks with inflation. Okay, so I’ll, I’ll confess and say that I have gotten bored at meetings, and I feel like that is my sign that maybe I need to rotate some of my tools.

Yeah. But I, there is such value in reviewing this information, because there’s that saying that we have like a quick forgetter. Mm-hmm. It’s easy to forget, and, but I, you know, I, I will get bored sometimes, and sometimes I get complacent, or it’s like, how many times can I hear this story from this same person?

I know. And then I have to remind myself, oh, here’s an opportunity for me to practice a little patience and compassion and- Oh … so I’m exercising that patience muscle without having… I, I don’t pray for patience ’cause then God will- Don’t ever pray for patience. Or humility. No. ‘Cause then God will give you a, a, a reason to be patient.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Or a [00:12:00] reason to practice humility. Um, but I, but I love that. It’s, there is just always a different way to look at the same information. Love that. Okay, so we’ve gotten through self-care practice. Uh, what’s one thing you wish you would’ve known right from the beginning? That’s when I was, I actually went to a, a treatment center.

You know, shout out to the Farley Center out there. They’re 12-step based, and they help literally saved my life. In that program, they focus on steps one, two, and three, you know? And I would look up, up there and I’d say, “Well, what about step six? What about step…” You know, and they would really, like, kind of shut me down, say, “Just focus on steps one, two, and three.”

And I was- Okay … I was, that gave me some… I said, “Listen, you want me to drink the Kool-Aid, but you’re not gonna tell the, tell me the recipe?” I wish someone would’ve shared- Oh … like, what the whole program was. Like, give me an overview. Give me some, share some more- Got it … ’cause I, you want me to swallow this, but you’re only gonna share the first three steps, you [00:13:00] know?

And so I, I wish someone would’ve given me more of an overview. And so- Okay … much of my outreach I do now when I go into treatment facilities is I do this broad overview of 12 steps. You know? Got it. What, what that transition looks like, where you could end up. And so that’s something I, I wish someone early on would’ve shared with me.

But, the way it happened for me seemed to work out, so who am I to try to change something that’s working? I get that, though. I think it’s so beneficial to have like, where are we going? Mm-hmm. Like, my, part of my brain is like, “I need to know where we’re going s- so that I feel like I have a clue.”

Yeah. I have trust issues. You want me to trust you? Give me some more. I have trust issues. Don’t we all? Yeah, I love that. Thank you for, that was the end of the lightning round. Oh, I loved that. You get a little dang star trophy, whatever. That was, I, don’t stop doing that. That was… Yeah. I haven’t done that in a long time.

Okay, so I kinda wanna talk about how we got here. Mm-hmm. And I’m always super curious. We’ll get into, like, the stories [00:14:00] ’cause I know everyone wants to hear that. But what happens in childhood really sets- Mm-hmm … the stage for what comes later. So, like, what did your dad do? You’re one of eight siblings.

What was that like for you? Yes. Oh, oh my gosh. So my mom and dad, my dad was a carpenter, you know, really good with wood, just real, almost magical, all rounded corners, really, really artistic. Uh, my mom was a, a mom. And they were very strict Catholics. And they were so strict Catholics that, you know, pre-Vatican II, I don’t know if everyone remembers that.

It’s when the, the priest kind of stopped facing the altar and started facing the congregation. For whatever reason, that flipped my mom out, and she pulled us all out of school, and we were all homeschooled. So now- Oh my goodness … all eight of us are homeschooled from, like, an early age. And then not only that, we originally lived in, excuse me, San Diego.

They disconnected from society and went up to the mountains of Northern California, and we lived in a tent by the side of the river for a year, and then eventually found a home up there in the mountains. So we kinda, like, ran away from [00:15:00] society. So- Wow. Yes. We lived in this town called Horse Creek, which was population 89.

And so if you do the math, like 10% of the population’s in my family when we moved in. You know, it, it was crazy. Wow. It was crazy. Eight kids up in the woods, all homeschooled, and, you know, that gave us a lot of freedom. Uh, built tons of forts and rope swings, and I learned to swim in the river and, you know, just crazy outdoor adventures.

But you start turning 15, 16, and you realize there’s not– there’s, like, one girl within 100 miles, and she doesn’t like me. That becomes a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I ran away. Yeah. Oh, you did? I did. I ran away from home at 16. I, uh, I was very worried ’cause, uh, uh, God bless my mom. I love her.

She’s amazing, but I don’t feel she was an incredible teacher. She would give us books and say, “You know, learn or be stupid. It’s up to you, and what you learn, you teach your sister, and she’ll teach your brother,” and so on and [00:16:00] so forth. But I– that left me with a– I felt like I was falling behind everyone else in the world.

Wow. Yeah. Like, at a gas station, if I saw another kid my age, I’d go ask him math problems and history questions, trying to figure out if I was as smart as them or not. You know, I was, I was really worried that I was not smart enough. And so when I ran away, I went all the way back down to San Diego from Northern California, and, uh, I g- took my GED, and I did a lot of couch surfing.

I stayed with some relatives at first. You know, at 16, I had this Indiana Jones fedora on and a leather jacket ’cause I thought I was Indiana Jones, and I got into San Diego Mesa College at 16 and started taking classes. Wow. And the classes had like 100 people in the classroom, and that’s more than my hometown, so I was just big- big-eyed and motivated, just wanted to just do something with my life.

That’s crazy. Did your, did your parents, uh, what… So your dad was a carpenter. Did you, did either of them drink? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. My dad [00:17:00] had a, he had a temper. He was an alcoholic. Mm … before, I think he did a lot of drugs and partying before, and he kinda fell into an alcoholic groove. And so he was, you know, there was, there was, like, angry sober dad, and then there was Dad who was happy and drunk, you know?

And there was those- Oh, wow … two places, and you had to figure out which dad it was. And it was, uh, yeah, it, it, Dad had a lot going on. And, and there was a… It’s almost like in our family of eight kids the years that my dad had the the hardest drinking were the w- there was a cutoff in the kids that the ones who were exposed to that all became addicts and alcoholics, and the ones after that- Wow

Didn’t. So there was this, there’s definitely, like, a you know, the, the nature versus nurture going on there where you see it’s genetic, but it’s also behavioral. Yeah. You know? So would you… I’m, I’m sure you’ve been to lots of therapy and all that stuff. Do, were you considered complex PTSD from repetitive, like, exposure to violence and?

Th- [00:18:00] that also, and there were some, there were some strange things that my dad did early on that echoed throughout my life. A- and one that pulled on me when I was, I was very young, and we were in the backyard, and he was digging. And I, I must’ve only been five or six years old, and it’s one of my earliest memories.

My dad stops, and he’s leaning on the shovel, and he says, out of the blue, “I wonder what it would feel like to take a human life.” And I remember just being a little kid and that, knowing that’s an out of place statement, but just being like It impacted me. And that kind of followed my life journey, you know?

Into, like, playing with G.I. Joe characters, and as I grew up, always wanting to be the hero, always wanting to chase adrenaline and, finally becoming a Navy SEAL. There was this quest for feeling extreme feelings, you know? Like, what does that feel like? What does everything feel like? What does more feel like?

Yeah, so I, I, I think early on I could trace my addiction to wanting to feel more in a lot of [00:19:00] what I did. Yeah. Did you have a lot of fear growing up? Were you afraid of your dad? I was definitely afraid of my dad. I was, uh, afraid of being stupid. Uh, there was a lot of fear motivated, but at the same time, I was very risk-averse, you know?

The more my dad got mad at me and punished me, the sneakier I began be- became. Mm-hmm. You know, I got– My, my tactics for getting away with shit leveled up as my dad kept trying to catch me. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I became very, um, very stealthy, and my, my risk versus, risk that would normally stop other people, I would just seem like I could just push past that.

I was very much risk-aver- risk– pro risk-averse. I think that’s what you call it, yeah. Uh, it sounds like you were like leaning into risk as opposed to fear. I wa- I was, nah, risk did not bother me, you know? I, I- Yeah … very much, Pro risk … pro risk. Yeah. I was very comfortable with risk. Risky. Yes. Yeah, risky behavior, yeah, which, which checks out considering your youth.

Yeah. But I learned how to carry that. Uh, when I was a young kid, [00:20:00] my dad carried cash in his blue jeans and, you know, sometimes he worked nights and he would just sleep in the, on his couch. And I’d crack the door and see him sleeping, and I’d crawl across the floor kinda timing my crawls with his snore.

Like I’d crawl a little bit more and- Yeah … and I’d get up to his blue jeans, and I’d reach in there and I’d be fishing out some money out of his pocket, knowing if he woke up, he would beat my ass. And I could feel my heart beating and this knot in my chest like I’m about to get caught. I feel like I’ve, I’ve had that knot in my chest my whole life.

Wow. Like, I always felt like I’m about to get caught. And I learned how to carry that knot of just being, “Hmm, be cool, be cool.” Living on the edge. Oh, but yes. And it wasn’t until in recovery that I remember feeling that, “Wait a minute, that’s not there.” That had to be an adjustment too. I mean, I hear that about people, like they get sober and then they’re like they can’t deal with the, uh, peace.

[00:21:00] That’s called serenity. Well, I don’t like it. It’s too quiet. Yeah. We don’t like that shit. Yeah. Okay. So when, so that’s amazing that you were just like, “I’m out.” Mm-hmm. So you’re just on your own, not afraid of risk. Um- Yep. Uh, that is me … you find a way to get an education. Yeah. And- I did a junior college.

Back then it was $3 a unit, so I picked up a job at 7-Eleven and, yeah, started- Wow … chip, chipping away. And, uh, so you’re essentially on your own. Did you have any adult, adults looking out for you? Uh, there was… Like, I, I lived at my grandparents for a little while, get my footing, and then I found a roommate and I, I loved the idea of living on my own and trying to be self-sufficient.

Um- … I remember taking a lot of classes. I started off aerospace engineering and went biochemistry and I kept changing, but I came across this one class. It was a EMT, emergency medical technician. And, uh, with this certificate, I could be a hero, and I remember feeling like I could save [00:22:00] someone. Yeah.

And with that certificate, I heard that there was a, um, clamatory fire department with a fire rescue rig up, back up in northern California was hiring. And so when I turned 18, got up there and I was able to join the fire department That’s amazing at 18 years old 18 years old, you start off as a volunteer, and you get to go on calls, and you get your radio, and, you know, you get to really go towards the action.

You know? You get the vehicle over the embankment and the Jaws of Life and all this cool gear you get to play with, and you get to actually be a hero. And ah, it was so feeding. That’s amazing. The guys and the girls you work with, it was just part of a team. And- Two years in … yeah, two years into that I remember a lot of times we’d get on a call, and you’re, like, hoping the medics get there, like the ambulance.

“Oh, here it goes. Oh, here they go.” And here they come code three, and they show up, and those guys had the jumpsuits and all the trauma gear, and they’d work the patient up, and they’d go code three [00:23:00] back to the hospital. And so I transferred over to an ambulance service, Northern Six Ambulance, worked for them for two years.

Loved sleeping in the bunkhouse, loved that, that my team’s waiting, and me and one other person are going to save the day, and it was, again, just being the hero. Yeah. Totally addicted to that adrenaline rush. Yeah. Two years into that, I was really, looking at law enforcement. Those guys…

There were a lot of calls we couldn’t go into the house because it was a domestic dispute and the scene wasn’t safe. So we’re waiting for the cops to show up, and they could kick in the door, and they could bust skulls and drag out the bad guy. They had faster cars. They had guns. So I started taking, like, all my law enforcement classes, my, you know, advanced driving certs and all these things to transfer to a sheriff’s office that was hiring.

And before I could do that, my chief pulls me aside and goes, “Dice, what are you doing, man? You’re just, you’re jumping all over the place.” Mm-hmm. I said, “Hey, you know, I’m just trying to be all I can be.” Like, [00:24:00] what… I said, “Well, what’s the top of the food-” That’s a good problem … “What’s the top of the food chain?”

And he didn’t think twice. He said, “That’s a Navy SEAL.” And I was like, “All right, I’ll do that.” And I went down to the Navy recruiter the next day, and I signed up for a, it’s called the delayed enlistment program, where they give you six months to get in shape, and I signed up to be a corpsman on a SEAL team.

And my recruiter did not put that down on the application. He put an engineman on a SEAL team, which is a… If you look at a cross-section of a ship, a corpsman would work somewhere towards the sunlight. An engineman would work down in the bowels of the ship where it’s 130 degrees and double hearing protection, and it’s a horrible place to work.

So that recruiter kinda screwed me over, but I, I got in the Navy. I made it to BUD/S, made it through training, got to the SEAL teams, and again, I found this awesome group of guys, and our job was to be a hero. But there was one major change joining the Navy. [00:25:00] Before, the guys would drink and hang out, but when I joined the Navy, it was like my drinking turned pro.

It was part of like the, the tradition, the honor. I mean, it was, there was how much you could drink and you can hold your own and all the, the cheers and everything. And if you had a bad day, I could pull out a flask and I could be there for you. I mean, it was… The utility that alcohol is used in the military for everything, to advance, to if you got in trouble, if you got separated, if you got, if anything happened, it’s the solution.

And I loved having a solution in the form of a flask for any situation. So I embraced drinking wholeheartedly when I joined the Navy. It was like almost it was issued to me. “Here, Nick, for your emotional issues, here’s some alcohol,” yeah. That’s wild. Did you have any reservations of turning out like your dad?

Early on, I, because of my dad, I stayed away from weed, I stayed away from coke, I stayed away from ecstasy as I got exposed to it in my early teenage years. [00:26:00] And so also working for the fire department ambulance, they drug test you, so that was easy. But alcohol was kinda okay. I didn’t see it as the same thing.

So because of my dad, I had stayed away from drugs, the drugs other than alcohol. Mm-hmm. But in the Navy Alcohol was the only drug I was allowed to do, and I embraced it Okay. Yes. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So tell me a little bit about, maybe this is where the SEAL stories come in. Did you get deployed?

You got to… I know you, you said you, uh, served with Jocko Willink and- Yes, got deployed. Uh, yeah, Jocko and I- … and his son and- … were at SEAL Team 2 together. That’s crazy. And that’s what Jocko do. That, he’s scary now, but guys, but back then, there was, at SEAL Team 2, if you got in trouble, if you were a shitbag, the penalty was two minutes in the Milvan with Jocko.

That was the punishment. Two minutes in what? In the Milvan. A Milvan’s like a big Conex box. You know, it’s a big lockable shipping container. Oh. And if you got in trouble, the penalty was they’re gonna throw you in that Milvan with Jocko and lock [00:27:00] the door. That was- And you guys had to fight it out? Listen, we were so scared of that happening.

There’s no way we’re gonna let that happen. It was like this implied threat when I checked into the SEAL team. Um- Did you ever see that happen? Did you ever see anybody get locked in there with him? I, no, I never saw it happen- I would have loved that … but I was scared as heck of it. Yeah. But he was, he was a scary guy back then.

He was fast, and thank goodness I was faster. On long runs I would, he’d be like, “I’m gonna get you if you… I’m gonna kick your ass if I pass you.” And I, he would never let him pass me. But yeah, he, he was, he was a super soldier even back then, man. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Props. I know he went on the Tim Ferriss podcast and he w- he was described as, like, the scariest I know.

So it’s like that, that checks out. Yeah, he looks like a- The scariest among scary men, yes. Yeah. He, he really does look like a action figure. But, uh- Mm-hmm … to be fair, so do you. Oh, man. Um, that’s wild. So were, were you actually, were you ever deployed with him? Uh, no, we were on, sister, called sister [00:28:00] platoon, so we did deploy.

Okay. We had different missions over there. Okay … and this is, let me preface all this. My first deployment out there was pre-9/11 We were not at war. Ah, okay. And so it’s a different tempo. Whole different. Whole different tempo. Lots of training. The good schools were few and far between. It felt like you’re a plumber who’s wor- trained to work on pipes their entire career, but they’ve never actually seen a pipe.

Ah. So we were, like, ready to put me to… I mean, there was so much that’s getting spent up. You’re, “Something’s gonna happen,” and nothing happens. And, “Something’s gonna happen,” and nothing happens. And if I’m honest, I’m the type of guy, if you don’t give me a mission, I’m gonna make one up. You know? I, I’m gonna go out and I’m gonna go just get myself into mischief.

And, uh- Uh-oh. Tell me about the mischief … it was… Oh, uh, we were out- Everybody wants to hear the mischief. Where did you get deployed? Are you allowed to say? Uh, yeah. It was, my first deployment was a med cruise out in the Mediterranean. And, uh, at one point we’re doing some training at the Rock of Gibraltar, the most southern-est tip of Spain.

[00:29:00] Yeah. And what’s neat about the Rock of Gibraltar, if people aren’t familiar with it, it’s this giant rock right there on the Strait of Gibraltar, and it’s it’s a very strategic position because it kinda covers all the traffic going through the, the Mediterranean out to the Atlantic, you know? It, it’s a very advantageous place to, to, to own.

And, and you’d think it would belong to Spain because it’s the southernmost tip of Spain, but no, England own it. Brit- it’s English. They own it. Yeah. Yeah. And so there’s this, this kind… You can tell there’s some animosity between them being there occupying part of Spain. And I could feel it when I was stationed there, and we were doing all our tunnel warfare training in the Rock of Gibraltar, which is, you know, you learn very quickly not to get in a gunfight in a tunnel because there’s only so much you can do, but they do spend a lot of time training you up how to do it properly.

So we’re spending a lot of time on the Rock of Gibraltar, in and out of it and all around it, and my buddy, his name’s Suef, and [00:30:00] I, uh… I’m diving you out, Suef, sorry, but it’s been almost 30 years. I think you’re fine. It’s fine. Yeah. Um- He won’t hear this. I’m like, yeah. And I said, “Hey, let’s go for a run, man.”

And we go for a run, and we go all the way up to the top of the rock. And you get up there at the very top of the Rock of Gibraltar, and it’s beautiful. You can see Africa. It’s just a beautiful v- view. And, um, when you get up to the very top, there’s this huge British flag, giant flag waving proudly up for all of Spain to see.

Oh. And I’m looking at it, and I’m saying, “Huh.” And I’m always a sucker for rooting for the little guy, you know? And so I’m looking at this, and, uh, I say, “Hey, Suef, cover me.” And he’s like, you know, he’s wearing his running outfit. He’s like, “What? What are you talking about?” And I, I turn over to the flag, and I rip out my spider coil, and I cut the rope, and I start pulling down the flag.

And it’s, you know, the flag looks small up there, but as it comes down it gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. And as it’s coming down, I can hear these alarms going, “Brr, brr, brr.” And I look [00:31:00] down the hill, way down at the base, and I can see these flashing lights. It’s like a, a quick reaction force has been launched in response to this, you know, this huge thing we’re doing.

Oh, my gosh. And so I bring the flag down, and I wad it up as much as I can, and I wrap it under my shirt, and I yell to Suif, “Run!” And we start running down the hill. And, you know, the, the road crisscrosses as it goes up the hill, and we’re just kind of beelining straight down. And we see a minivan coming down the hill, and we wave it to stop.

And, and, you know, it’s a guy saying, “What’s up, guys?” And we, and we say, “Hey, we’re late for a meeting. Can you please give us a ride down the hill? We really gotta get back.” He says, “Not a problem. Jump in.” Right? And so we get in the, the minivan, and we just lay on the ground. Like we’re tired. And he’s looking at us, and as we, we’re looking up at him, we can see all the lights of the response vehicles whizzing by the bus.

And he brings us down out of the, the base and through the gates of the compound, and we thank him so much. We get out of the minivan, and [00:32:00] we make a beeline back to our barracks, and we stash the flag, and we sit there like we’re, like we’re cleaning our gear. Trying to look innocent. And our chief walks by, and he’s…

I mean, at this point, the whole base is on alert, and there’s just, cops or soldiers everywhere. And my chief goes, “I don’t know what’s going on, but I’m pretty sure it has something to do with you two.” And we’re like, “No, Chief, we’re absolutely… We’re, there’s nothing going on here.” Innocent, we’re innocent.

And he, he leaves us alone, and the, the scene dies down. We complete our training, and before we leave the Rock of Gibraltar, it’s a common team guy, cool guy thing, is they get out on the tarmac with the giant rock in the background, and everyone gets out there, and they do a cool team guy pose. You know, like, “Ah.”

Mm-hmm. And we all kind of go, “Hooyah,” and they t- take a picture. And so Suif and I make our way towards the back of the whole platoon lined up there, and just before they take the picture- Oh, yeah … we open the flag up behind the whole platoon. So we have all our officers in charge, our chiefs and everyone [00:33:00] going like this with the flag in the background.

They snap the picture, and this is old school Polaroid. There’s no digital image. And then Suif and I wad up the flag, and put it away, and stand there like nothing happened. So that picture doesn’t get developed till we get back stateside and go to a one-hour developing store. And so we have this national treasure that’s been stolen off, and our, all our leadership is there ch- posing in front of it.

Oh my gosh. And that was our insurance that if we went down, everyone was going down with us. You are nuts. Um- So is this one of the stories that the lawyers told you not to put in the book? Oh, yeah. That’s what I had to fight with to put in. I was like, “Come on.” Um- That’s a great story. Oh, you are crazy. You is crazy.

Oh my gosh. That’s a combination of, you know, risk, being pro-risk, but also not really having a clear sense of boundaries or big picture. I mean, we could have- Yeah … easily gotten our entire SEAL [00:34:00] command kicked out of that training venue forever. We- Right … there were so many other ramifications that, m- I wasn’t even allowing myself to look at.

And- Yeah … that, there’s a clear pattern of not being able to see big pictures throughout my career as an addict alcoholic. Yeah. That’s crazy. So when did when did you start… You know, as they say in 12 step, it’s fun, fun with problems, and then it’s just problems. I kinda wanna fast-track you to the- Sure

just problems, ’cause I do wanna spend a little time on, on talking about your book. Yeah. Um, well, for me, you know, SEAL teams, I knew I was drinking a lot. And then as you get comfortable, I began to dabble in some coke and ecstasy. I wasn’t getting, I wasn’t getting written up for it or caught, but I could feel the writing on the wall that if I kept doing this, sooner or later I would.

And the, the question of stopping wasn’t even a, a question for me. And so when it came time to re-enlist, it was like, stay in and get busted, or do I get out? And so I got out. I, I, I gave up literally my passion to be a SEAL [00:35:00] so I could drink- Mm-hmm … and use how I wanted to. You know? It was like, It was crazy how addiction had blinded me and had robbed me of a career path.

Yeah. I became a private contractor, like a hired gun, and I went back overseas several times. Had a lot of trouble re- coming back stateside. I would deploy again and had a lot of trouble being okay in the, in the States without drinking or using more. Yeah. So my addiction spiraled, uh, get, got fairly out of control.

I remember switching from coke to meth because it made good financial sense, you know, it, it was cheaper, and that quickly spiraled into my health degrading. Mm. And I, I ended up, uh, when I hit bottom, I think I checked into rehab at 130 pounds. Um- Ooh. I know. Just skin and bones, and- How, how tall are you?

Uh, 6’2″. So it was definitely- Yeah. I, um- 130 pounds. Yeah. Is that the picture you showed me before where you was like- Yeah, that’s a picture that I, I keep on my desk to show me [00:36:00] that, hey, that life’s still available. You know, I, I, I’m here today because I’m not choosing that. And so I keep that picture on my desk that I look at every day.

Yes. Oh my gosh. I’m surprised you’re so… Okay, that’s, uh, that’s really scary. I mean, I’m, I’m 5’3″ and 130 pounds. I’m a little fluffy right now. It was scary. But I cannot imagine somebody being 6’2″ and 130 pounds. Yeah, skin and bones. That’s wild. Yeah. And, you know, trying to still, to not be in denial. Like, I’m just running a mile, you know?

I’m, I… And you look in the mirror just the right way, and you kind of convince- Yeah … yourself that you’re still okay. Yeah, denial is strong. Ooh, so much denial. Denial is so strong. But that’s me. So what ha- what happened, what was the catalyst for you getting sober? I think a big one was back when that H1N1, the swine flu pandemic came through.

Oh, yeah. You remember that? Well, my, at the time, I was married and I had a small son, Ronan, and he was, two years old in daycare, and I was on a three-day bender tweaking [00:37:00] out of my mind. And I get a call from daycare, and the, I li- listen to the voicemail, and the voicemail says, “There’s been an exposure of the H1N1, um, virus- Mm

at the daycare. We’re having all the parents come and pick up their kids.” And in my head, I was like, “My son’s in trouble. I need to save him,” you know? “Okay, let me just, let me get my shit together.” And then, you know, my wife’s calling and it’s going to voicemail, and the daycare’s calling and going to voicemail, and my wife’s calling, and I’m, I’m trying to put this pipe down and get out of there.

I need to save my son, and for three hours, I couldn’t get out of that room. Oh. And I remember turning off my phone and just using- And that was when the spirit, I could hear it break, and I stopped looking in the mirror, and I hated who I’d become. I just hated. My whole life I trained to be a hero, and I couldn’t do that anymore.

I couldn’t not even for my son, I could not do that. And that was- Yeah … that was the end. That was me admitting that I was [00:38:00] a, I was an alcoholic. And- And so I ended up in treatment 12 step, didn’t- Is that when you went to, did you say it was called the Farley Center? The Farley Center in Williamsburg, Virginia.

Yep. Mm-hmm. Um, I randomly picked it out of a phone book. There was no rhyme or reason. Uh, my therapist there, his name was Dre Summers, and, for some universal line and this guy could see through my bullshit, and it was a, I think one of the– On day six, my insurance said I had to be transferred out of treatment, and I was, I was so angry because by then I, I wanted to stay.

I was like I know I need this. If you kick me out- Oh, no … I’m gonna, I’m gonna relapse for sure.” And so I asked my therapist for a four-hour pass, and he was very skeptical. He thought I was gonna go rob a bank or something, ’cause I needed to come up with $9,000 to stay in treatment. And, uh- Mm. I know. And so I, I told him I wasn’t gonna rob a bank.

I had my car. I wanted to sell it for money for rehab. And so he [00:39:00] gave me the pass, and I, I went to CarMax, and I sold my car, and I remember standing in the parking lot going- Mm-hmm … “I don’t have to go back. You know, this $9,000, this is a good run. I don’t have to go back.” And contemplating not going back to treatment.

But something in me wanted, you know, wanted to be someone different. Like, I hated that guy so much. This might be my ticket out. And I went back to rehab, and I endorsed the back of the check, and I said, “Will you guys accept this?” ‘Cause I didn’t trust myself cashing it. And they took the check with the signature on the back.

Wow. And so I stayed in treatment. And that was literally my, my, in my, you know, step one, my sponsor asked me to write when did you, you know, know you were an addict? And I wrote about when I was my, left my son in the daycare, and that’s when I knew. And step two, he said, you know, “When did you become aware, you know, when did hope come back into your life?

When did you get that?” I said, “Those first several days in treatment, I remember this shift taking place [00:40:00] where maybe this will work, and this little bit of a sense of I, I need to change, and this might do it.” And that was my step two moment. And then for step three, he asked me, “When did you become willing to take suggestions?”

And it was me standing in the parking lot with that check. And when I decided to come back to Farley and give it, that was me doing whatever it took. Whatever you told me to do, I was willing to do. I was just gonna say willingness to go to any length for your sobriety. Any length. There was one therapist there at the Farley Center who said that, uh, to this day, I don’t know, really know where she got it from, but she said that when I was a kid, I never learned how to self-soothe.

And so she wanted me to go to Walmart and get a teddy bear, and for the rest of my time in treatment, wanted me to carry the teddy bear around my, wherever I went. And so I went out to Walmart. I didn’t understand this. I was very like, “I’m a Navy SEAL. We don’t do teddy bears.” And she just said, “That’s the suggestion.”

And so I got the teddy bear. I put a little arm, [00:41:00] skull and crossbone armband on him to make him look tough. But I carried it all through my time in treatment, just walking around with this teddy bear in my How long were you in treatment for? I did 34 days in treatment- Okay … and then transferred to an inta- inpatient, intensive outpatient program, and then, jumped in the back pocket of my sponsor and, you know, the next year was all step work.

Yeah. That’s beautiful. Yeah. H- did it, how long did it take you to get through the steps? Uh, it took, I went as fast and as hard as I could, and it took me, like, 14 months. Yep, 14 months. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, if you really do it, the thorough- It takes what it takes for everyone, you know? Yeah. It does.

Yeah. I’ve seen people do it in a year, sometimes. Listen, I, the only thing I know of my, all my years of sobriety is I don’t know what’s right for anybody else. Yeah. But I do believe that things happen on God’s timing. Mm-hmm. Like, however it happens, I guess that’s how it was supposed to happen for you, whether it’s six months, uh, [00:42:00] two years.

Exactly. I think my h- my husband’s been sober over, you know, almost 40 years and he didn’t do a single step for his first year of sobriety. Wow. Yep. Yeah. When I watched my wife, she has, I think she’s 11 years now. When I watched her go through the first step, the step work, I was like, “You’re doing it wrong.”

You’re doing it all wrong. I had to shut up and talk to my sponsor. You’re not doing it my way. I know. I had to let it, let it happen. I could not- It’s scary, though. Yes, but I was worried- I get that it’s scary … I was worried that she was gonna come out the other side and, “Who are you? Why am I with you?”

Totally- I know. Yeah … changed. And yeah, but it worked out. Did you meet in recovery? Uh, no. I, when we met I was attending classes at Oldham University and she was my professor.

Dude, you are scandalous on a multitude of levels. I know. I love that about you. Oh my. I love that. Oh my God. Yeah, I g- I got with my husband when I was five months sober and he [00:43:00] was, like, five or six years sober. Oh my goodness. 13th ever. 30, 30-plus years later, so far, so well. Wow. I know. Yep. You’re the story that messes up the curve.

I know, yeah. That’s right. But we definitely stayed together by doing the steps, for sure. Yes. We would do, uh, inventories. Like, I’d go to my sponsor and I’d be like, “Bobby did this and Bobby did that,” and she’d be like, “I don’t sponsor him, so we’re gonna talk about your part.” That’s so cool. Uh, and we have a common language to talk to each other.

Yeah. That is so, and our kids, we have five kids together, and I can hear 12-step recovery in the way they talk to their friends. Yeah. Oh, it’s such a gift. It is such a gift. That’s amazing. Hey, let’s talk about your book a little bit. Sure. Um, so does, is it focused on, what kind of solutions did you feel like were, was important to put in the book?

Just a side note, we have been talking about my book this whole time. I know. Yeah. Yeah. No, my book, what I did, guys, um, I endeavored to [00:44:00] make a self-help recovery book- Uh, hidden in an amazing, crazy, wild, halfway illegal story. And it is, it’s my life, how it unfolded. A- and you will truly not like the character in the story.

You will not- Mm. You… I was not a good guy. I did a lot of- Okay. This is not a hero, shoot ’em up, bang, bang, Navy SEAL book. This is a guy who blew up his life. You know, really just blew up everything he held dear, turned into someone he swore he’d never be, and then how he found his way out again. So- Okay

in my book, I chronicle all of that, my journey through the 12 steps, my journey into recovery, my journey back to school, my associate’s, undergraduate, master’s, PhD. And in that journey, looking back at 12-step recovery and go, “How did this happen? Wait a minute. There’s more here going on than I realized.”

And finding the embedded theory found in 12-step recovery. Mm. And then endeavoring to teach other therapists, “Listen, this is stuff you already know [00:45:00] how to do, they’re already doing in 12-step recovery. If you wanna better support your patients, learn this pattern. Help them in these s- six ways,” you know?

And so I really endeavored to kinda educate modern therapists to what’s going on in 12-step recovery. And so, uh, the, I call it the holistic change model, and it’s a, it’s a way of looking at 12-step recovery through a therapist lens, you know? You- Okay … you’re gonna get out, y- the first three steps are all stages of change.

Are they ready to receive a message of recovery? Steps four and five are narrative therapy. Steps six, seven, eight, and nine, it’s all cognitive behavioral therapy. Okay. And steps 10, 11, and 12 is e- existential therapy. And if you follow that pattern, you can see how 12-step recovery, I think there’s over 220 different 12-step fellowships in the world, and they cover, you know, behavioral addictions, substance abuse addictions.

Yeah. They cover everything. How can so many things that ail the [00:46:00] human condition be worked out with one 12-step format? And it’s because it follows this curve of recovery- Interesting … and redemption. I love that. I, I feel like there’s, um, a lot of people who actually build their entire careers off of bashing 12 steps, which makes me insane.

It makes me insane. And I get that there are some parts of it that are problematic. You know, I, I wrote a book about 12 steps to sort of- Mm-hmm … you know, clear up the misconceptions. But I, I, um, just, you know, you and I both love, like, we get it. We, we- Yeah … see the magic out of it, and it’s, I think it’s important.

I love that you’re addressing the professionals because they are often sort of like the gateway into a process- Right … that people can do often for free. Yes. Not, not everybody has the res- like, when I blew up my life, I didn’t have any money to go to therapy. I didn’t even know about rehab 32 years ago.

Exactly. So. Yeah. [00:47:00] Yeah. And 12 step recovery is in every language on every continent all over the world. Yes. And now because of Zoom, it’s anywhere you are. If you’re- Anywhere … you have kids at home, no worries, you can stay at home. If you’re in the hospital, you can go to a meeting. Yeah. If you’re in Bangladesh, guess what?

You got all kinds of meetings. Yeah. Uh. All kinds of meetings too. I think that’s one of the things that people don’t understand, that there’s different types of meetings. There’s, uh, women only, there’s men only. There’s, there’s- Whatever. There’s, um- … crystal meth anonymous meetings. There’s pill- Yeah

anonymous meetings. There’s, yeah. But there’s like speaker meetings, topic discussion- Sh- … literature meetings. You could just get with other people. Underearners anonymous meetings. Yeah. Yeah. There, it is so wild. Yeah. And get this, here’s two more cool things. Remember when Australia was on fire and it was all burning?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You can attend a meeting in Australia and help support them through recovery. Mm. Or if you just enjoy the Australian accent, you can attend their online [00:48:00] meetings. Yeah. When New York was on lockdown, I could log into New York, into meetings in New York, and be part of their recovery process.

Yes. When I got my 10-year medallion, I logged into my online home group, and my mom logged in from Northern California. Oh. My sister logged in from San Diego, and my brother logged in from Maui, and we were all in the same meeting at the same time. That’s amazing. Isn’t that awesome? I love that. That is really beautiful.

Mm-hmm. Listen, we could, we could obviously chat like forever. Oh, I gotta come back. Please invite me. Please. I, this is so much fun. Yeah, anytime you wanna come back. Absolutely. I, I would love to have that ’cause we could, uh, dive into some more solutions. I know you have sort of presentations and things that you do.

Yes. Um, so we’ll get into it. We’ll do part two. But where can people find you? Okay. Um, well there’s a couple other things. I’m actually working on a TED Talk. If you go to O- my YouTube page, Dr. Dice, Dr. Tony Dice. Okay. All my social media is #drdice. I, I’m always putting out content on emotional compulsivity, on [00:49:00] new- Mm-hmm

ways of looking at recovery. I, I’m trying to be very active and trying to get this message of recovery out there as wide as I can. Uh, I’m also really- Yeah … and I’m gonna s- highlight this one area high performers. You know, whether it be military, law enforcement, first responders, high performers, there is a lot of this emotional compulsivity, #addiction, involved in people who have, y- you know, they’re either addicted to their job, they’re addicted to the gentleman, they’re addicted to winning.

And all of that before their life blows up is very rewarding a- and is very approved by society, but doesn’t mean you’re having trouble at home, doesn’t mean you’re having trouble inside with identity, it doesn’t mean you’re having trouble with your kids. All those things can be still looked at and addressed before your whole life gets blown up.

So- Yeah … I really am trying to draw attention to the different ways in which we use the word addiction. I think it’s a much- Yeah … a much broader definition is required Yeah, absolutely. I always say [00:50:00] that the purpose of addiction is distraction. It’s distraction from those feelings that we want to avoid- Mm-hmm.

Yes … mostly. But I really appreciate addressing the high performers ’cause it’s so easy to delude ourselves that everything’s fine if you still have the job, and the money, and the car, and the house, and all those things. Yeah, success. Yes. Yeah, but typically your relationships are in shambles though, so it comes at the cost.

And when our relationships are in shambles- Mm-hmm … it can lead to a very dark place. Oh, gosh. And, you know, I’m not gonna poo-poo addicts and alcoholics. To me, they’re the most interesting people to talk to. They have the most dynamic, and if you look throughout the pages of history, history is made by addicts and alcoholics.

You, you, you know, you look at the people who built the pyramids, I’m sure they weren’t balanced individuals, and no offense, Elon Musk. A lot of writers, musicians. There, there’s a lot of people out there, high performers, that have a lot of unbalance or addiction that they’re dealing with, that ob- obsessive [00:51:00] compulsive nature of them helps them change the world.

I, I- Yeah … yes. And I think for many of us it just needs to be harnessed. Find some semblance- Yeah … of balance in your life and you can still achieve amazing things. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Workaholism is my favorite addiction.

Yes. Yes. Um- Anyway, listen, thank you so much for joining me today. Absolutely. I, I really enjoyed- Oh, I did too … our chat with you today. Thank you so much, and we’ll have you back for round two. Yes. Yeah, when the book comes out, we’ll talk about it, sign a copy. It’ll be awesome. It’ll be fun. That’d be great.

Very great. Thanks so much. Thank you. Take care.

What if the very thing you trained your whole life to become – the identity you bled for, the title you earned – turned out to be the exact thing addiction used against you? And what happens when a man built to be a hero realizes he can no longer save his own son?

Dr. Tony Dice is a Navy SEAL veteran, PhD, and author of After the Trident: A Navy SEAL’s Battle with Secrets, Shame, and Addiction. With 16 years of sobriety, Tony rebuilt his life from a crystal meth addiction that left him at 130 pounds at 6’2″ – and turned that rock bottom into a second career as a therapist, researcher, and recovery advocate. He served alongside Jocko Willink at SEAL Team 2, gave up his SEAL career to protect his drug use, and eventually found his way through a 12-step program he now helps therapists understand on an entirely new level.

The Identity That Addiction Destroys

Tony grew up in extreme isolation – one of eight kids, homeschooled, living in a mountain town called Horse Creek with a population of 89, with an alcoholic father whose moods ruled the household. He ran away at 16, earned his GED, and began chasing the only thing that made him feel whole: being the hero. Firefighter, EMT, ambulance medic – he kept climbing until someone told him the top of the food chain was a Navy SEAL. He signed up the next day.

But in the military, alcohol was practically issued along with the uniform – it was how you bonded, how you coped, how you proved you belonged. And for Tony, whose drug use eventually escalated to crystal meth, the addiction quietly dismantled everything the SEAL identity had built. “Addiction had blinded me and robbed me of a career path,” he says. He got out of the Navy not because he wanted to – but because staying meant getting caught. He chose his addiction over his dream.

The Moment Everything Cracked

Tony’s rock bottom came during the H1N1 pandemic scare. He was three days into a meth binge when the daycare called: his two-year-old son Ronan had been exposed to the virus, and all parents needed to come pick up their kids. For three hours, Tony tried to put the pipe down and walk out the door. For three hours, he couldn’t do it. His wife’s calls went to voicemail. The daycare’s calls went to voicemail. He turned off his phone.

“My whole life I trained to be a hero, and I couldn’t do that anymore – not even for my son.” That was the moment the denial broke. He checked into the Farley Center in Williamsburg, Virginia, at 130 pounds. On day six, when his insurance cut out, he asked his therapist for a four-hour pass, took the bus to CarMax, sold his car for $9,000, and went back to treatment. Standing in that parking lot with a check in his hand and no way home, he made a choice. He endorsed the check, handed it to the front desk, and stayed.

A New Framework for Understanding Recovery

Tony went on to earn his PhD, and along the way he noticed something remarkable about the 12-step program that had saved his life: it wasn’t just spiritual wisdom – it was clinical psychology, hiding in plain sight. He calls it the Holistic Change Model. Steps 1-3 are stages of change. Steps 4-5 are narrative therapy. Steps 6-9 are cognitive behavioral therapy. Steps 10-12 are existential therapy. Over 220 different 12-step fellowships use this exact structure – and it works because it follows the natural curve of human recovery and redemption. Tony now teaches this framework to therapists so they can better support the patients already doing 12-step work.

And through all of it, one thing has anchored him: gratitude – not as a feeling, but as an action. He has a handcuff key tattooed on his leg with the word “gratitude” on it. “A grateful alcoholic will not drink,” his sponsor told him early on. Tony took that literally. Washing the dishes after dinner, arranging the pillows on the bed in a new pattern every morning so his wife comes home and loves it – everything is an expression of what he gets to have today.

“Gratitude is not just a feeling – it is an action word. And that is what freed me from so much of what I was holding onto.”

Recovery doesn’t require a perfect past – it just requires willingness. Tony Dice went from Navy SEAL to rock bottom to PhD, and what he found along the way is that the 12 steps work precisely because they mirror the deepest truths of human psychology. If you are in the middle of your own fight right now, know this: the program is not asking you to be who you were. It is asking you to find out who you actually are.

Action Items

• Notice how your identity – your job title, your role, your reputation – might be connected to your relationship with substances or compulsive behavior. Recovery often means rebuilding who you are from the inside out.
• Keep a physical reminder of your rock bottom close by. Tony keeps a photo of himself at 130 pounds on his desk every day as a reminder of what is still available if he chooses it.
• Practice gratitude as action, not just a feeling. Washing dishes, making the bed, calling a friend – find one concrete way to express it every single day.
• If you struggle to sit still in early recovery, keep your hands busy. Crocheting, coloring books, or a repetitive gym routine can be legitimate forms of meditation.
• Look up Enjoying the Journey by NA World Services – written in a modern voice and organized by life topic (relationships, money, kids), it is one of the most practical recovery resources available today.
• If you are bored at meetings, take that as a signal – not that the meetings have failed, but that it may be time to level up your recovery work.
• Willingness is the door to step three. You do not have to have it all figured out. You just have to be willing to go to any length.

Resources Mentioned

• After the Trident: A Navy SEAL’s Battle with Secrets, Shame, and Addiction by Dr. Tony Dice –
• Enjoying the Journey – NA World Services (recent publication, organized by life topic)
• Dr. Tony Dice on YouTube: @drdice
• Dr. Tony Dice on social media: #drdice
• Dr. Tony Dice website: bishopdicedefense.com

👊 Additional Resources:

🎁 Free Guide: 30 Tips for Your First 30 Days – With a printable PDF checklist
Grab your copy here: https://www.soberlifeschool.com

☎️ Private Coaching: Make Sobriety Stick – For Sober Curious or abstinence seekers 
https://www.makesobrietystick.com

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Dr. Dykes, thank you so much for joining me today. Oh, it’s my honor to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. Yeah. I saw see you right from the start. I was like, “Navy SEAL, everyone’s gonna wanna hear a story.” Oh, my gosh. Okay. We’ll share. That’s what we’re here for. We’ll, we’ll talk a little bit about that, but we’re gonna talk about your book, After the Trident: A Navy SEAL’s Battle with Secrets, Shame, and Addiction.

I know. I know. I mean, this, half of me thinks this book’s gonna land me in jail. The, the lawyers were like, “You can’t say that.” I’m like, “It’s the truth. It’s the truth.” Yeah. Yeah. And, I think what’s really interesting is what you’ve done afterwards, right? Mm-hmm.

So it’s not just about surviving and overcoming, it’s not about the horror stories of addiction- No … but it’s all the things that you’ve been able to accomplish after that. Oh, yeah. A lot of it’s, many people, especially, high performers, they have an identity, and that’s everything to them.

And one thing you and I both know about addiction is it shatters, it erodes it from the inside, robs you of the honor, and [00:01:00] shatters that identity. And so through recovery, finding my way, finding who I was, and actually realizing there’s so much more to me than just being a Navy SEAL. So that was the big- Yeah

aha moment in my life. That’s … Yeah. We will definitely get into it. I like to do a little game I call the lightning round. Yeah. Which everybody teases me ’cause it’s very slow. But I like to front load the episode with some resources. Okay. So, when it… i, I’m a total book nerd. So were there any books that especially helped you early on in recovery?

Um, yes, there’s a book out there and it’s, and it’s, uh, NA World Literature put it out. It’s one of the more recent publications. It’s called Enjoying the Journey, and it has, uh, recovery segments, but it’s almost like categories. So if you wanna know about sex, if you wanna know about relationships, it’s, it’s grouped like that.

So it’s very useful in early recovery, navigating different phases that you’ll be passing through. So it’s called Enjoying the Journey, [00:02:00] NA World Services puts it out. Love that. I’m sure it covers all the things about, like, raising kids and money and- Yes, yeah, very topical. And it’s actually one of the most recent pieces of literature written.

I think it’s only six or seven years old, so it’s, it’s written in a, in a voice we can understand, ’cause we know, you know- … AA and NA was written back in 1935. No one talks like that anymore. And so it’s easy to relate to. John Barleycorn? Who the hell is John Barleycorn? Exactly. Exactly. No, that’s, that’s really cool.

What about, how long have you been sober? Let’s see. July will be 16 years. Woo-hoo. Congratulations. Thank you. So 16 years ago, it doesn’t sound like this book was out. What books really helped you, like, in the very beginning? You know, my, I was a, my drug of choice towards the end was crystal meth, so my, I was like this vibrating little mess.

And it was- See, you were reading a lot I wasn’t reading. It was hard to get through a, like a recovery meeting reading- Yeah … you know? Like- I get it … it was, everything was hard. Yeah. So some of the basic, basic things that I [00:03:00] was given, like, read this chapter in the big book, was a monumental task.

Okay. So yeah, that, early on, that’s all I could hold onto. Thank you for sharing that, because I, I don’t think people talk about that often enough, of just about how squirrely we are- Mm-hmm … in the beginning. Like, not everybody was raised to be a book nerd. And maybe we just take it piecemeal. I’ll share a secret inside note I don’t tell anybody.

Um- Ooh. Early recovery, I was so hard for me to stay in my seat. I’d get up and get coffee, and I’d walk around the back of the meeting. Yeah. And I was just so antsy, and my sponsor was like, “Just sit down. Whatever it takes, stay in your seat,” you know? And so I’m sitting there, and I look over and I see a little old lady crocheting.

Yeah. And I remember my mom had taught me to crochet when I was a kid. You know, being a good addict, I, I went out and I shoplifted some yarn. And then- … I sat down in the meeting and I started crocheting, and I would crochet so hard I had like a bead of sweat. Yeah. And I could make a whole scarf in one meeting.

[00:04:00] That is so cool. And I did that my whole first year. The crazy epilogue to that story is that I’m the oldest of eight brothers and sisters. Half of them in rec- are in recovery, and I didn’t know this till later, but all of us crocheted our first year in recovery. We instinctively all regressed to something we could keep- We, we could find comfort in.

So that’s, uh, it’s crazy. Yeah. It’s so funny because I remember I, I’m a knitter too. I actually crochet. I, I’m a crocheter. Yes. I can’t, I can’t do the knitting. But I can, but I won’t. But the i- the idea of when your hands are busy, then your ears can listen. So I’ve seen people do, bring, um, like, coloring books.

Yes. Adult coloring books. There’s, like, adult col- Yeah. Adult coloring books. Yeah. People bring coloring books. Or I just love that there, there are so many different things, but I was part of the crocheters club too. You as a dude- I know … did you catch so much smoke for that? Well, you know, I did go out and I got the biggest crochet hook I could find.

It [00:05:00] was, like, as thick as my finger now. A manly one. A manly crochet hook, and I would get, like, five strands of yarn at one time, and I’d make these huge scarves. So I tried to make it as masculine as pos- As possible. Yeah. I don’t know why, when that became, like, a woman’s thing, but- Back in the olden days, you know- Yeah.

Back then- … men used to do it all the time. You gotta do what you gotta do. Well, well listen, I love that. That is probably the one of the most helpful tips that I’ve heard in a very long time. Very unique. Over your sobriety- Mm-hmm … over the last 16 years, would you say that you had a quote or there, a theme of your sobriety?

And I’ll buy you a little time by saying obviously mine is, like, one day at a time, but also, like, just to find the balance- Yeah … and recommit. That was kinda my, over the last 16 years. I get that. Totally get that. Mine’s easy. Um, it’s, I think within the first couple years it became the bedrock for my recovery, and it was something I heard in a [00:06:00] meeting and I brought up with my sponsor, and he said that, you know, a grateful alcoholic will not drink.

And gratitude is the key. And I have a large like, a handcuff key tattooed on my leg where it says gratitude on it, because that’s what freed me from so much- Mm … of what I was holding onto. And if- Yeah … if I can find gratitude in my life- On a daily basis in everything I do, ’cause gratitude’s an action word, you know?

My wife makes me a wonderful dinner, I am washing those dishes with gratitude, and I’m cleaning the kitchen, and it’s my way of showing gratitude, you know? And for everything with my kids, it’s the same. It’s all, how can I express my gratitude for having my life today? Yes. Grat- listen, that is, like, the, the magic, uh, component right there.

Mm-hmm. I feel like it’s so underrated too, ’cause it’s free and it’s easy. Yes, it is. But it’s important. And it’s, you know, it’s not just a feeling. It’s action. Yeah. It’s an action word, yeah. I love that in the program it’s all about action, right? Do you have a regular self-care routine? I, I’m gonna [00:07:00] guess yes, but, and it can be, like, a morning routine.

Do you have, like, a weekly set of meetings, annual retreats? What does that look like for you? Good call. Yes, my normal, early on I was a meeting maker. You know, my sponsor said, “If you’re not at home, you’re not at work, your ass had better be in a meeting.” And so I would if I didn’t have anything to do that day, it’d be three, four, five, six meetings a day.

And, and I literally hit over 1,000 meetings my first year. I was just obsessed with going to meetings. That has since leveled off. As life b- gave me the different gifts of living a life of recovery, I’ve gotten to where I have two, sometimes three meetings a week is where my resting point is.

Yeah. Uh, things that I do, uh, on a daily. I, yep, make the bed. I have found with my wife that if I arrange the pillows in a certain magical way on the bed, she loses her shit and she thinks it’s awesome. So that’s something that I do every morning. I try to arrange it in a little different pattern every day, and she just loses her shit when she comes home from work.

So I, I do that. I, uh, I, early on I tried meditation. I really put a lot of [00:08:00] effort into it, and I had a lot of trouble with meditation. I really, I would close my eyes and all I could hear was, like, screaming in my head. Like I, I had a- Wow … a lot of trouble and it was very disturbing. And, um, I had a- really good therapist who recommended other forms of meditation. Yeah. And so, uh, running, I like to run. That’s a way for me to zone out. And in the gym I do this, this German strength building workout where it’s 10 sets of 10. So I literally am counting to 10 over and over again hundreds of times.

Mm-hmm. And that’s my meditation. And- I love that. I do that too. I, I have a day, um, my husband and I do weights five days a week, but one of my days I call it 10s. Yes. Right? 10 pushups, 10 pull-downs- Yep. Okay … 10 dips, and 10, I’m doing leg extensions right now. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a form of meditation.

Yeah. You just zone out and go with it. Yeah. And so on the daily I do three things for my recovery: call my sponsor, talk to some sponsees, go to a meeting. Those are my, I have to make sure in my [00:09:00] forefront I’m taking three actions towards my recovery. I love that. So I, you know what’s interesting to me is the idea that I hear people like, oh, at meetings afterwards, like, “I’m not getting anything out of it.”

And newsflash It’s so that we can give back, right? Mm-hmm. And every once in a while I’ll feel like I get something out of it, but I think people get confused as to why people with long-term recovery keep going. I know. A- a- and my sponsor pointed out to me, if you’re ever bored in a meeting, that’s a big red flag that you have stopped growing.

The meetings have been exactly the same since 1935. There’s always the old-timer in the back saying the same shit. You have the middle person in the middle who’s gone kinda crazy and still shares kinda crazy. You have the newcomer in the front who says, “Ah,” lost and saying weird stuff. All that exists every meeting.

A- and, for me working my first step to my second step, and now I’m seeing all three of those people differently, or how [00:10:00] much I’ve grown. Yeah. The old-timer’s message means something different. Fourth step, fifth step, sixth step, through my recovery. And then once I’m, I’ve gotten through the 12 steps, doesn’t mean I stop growing.

Mm-hmm. I have found that if I ever ran to a place where I feel bored or this is getting monotonous, that’s a red flag for me to, hey, I need to level up my recovery game. Um, there’s some cool things I’ve done with other people’s recovery. Like there was a really neat… I’m not gonna dine out his recovery, but he’s just a, he’s got such a strong message.

I asked him, “Hey, is there a way we could walk each other through those steps? Like, you do your way with me and I’ll…” And we did this through the 12 step with each other, and that was eye-opening how, you know, it’s like that cross-pollination. So there’s other ways to continue to grow in recovery, and I, I still look forward to my home group meetings.

I still look forward to many of my meetings because it’s, I call it the best show in town for a dollar. You know, it’s, there’s a lot going on. A dollar? You gotta [00:11:00] be, do two bucks now. Two bucks with inflation. Okay, so I’ll, I’ll confess and say that I have gotten bored at meetings, and I feel like that is my sign that maybe I need to rotate some of my tools.

Yeah. But I, there is such value in reviewing this information, because there’s that saying that we have like a quick forgetter. Mm-hmm. It’s easy to forget, and, but I, you know, I, I will get bored sometimes, and sometimes I get complacent, or it’s like, how many times can I hear this story from this same person?

I know. And then I have to remind myself, oh, here’s an opportunity for me to practice a little patience and compassion and- Oh … so I’m exercising that patience muscle without having… I, I don’t pray for patience ’cause then God will- Don’t ever pray for patience. Or humility. No. ‘Cause then God will give you a, a, a reason to be patient.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Or a [00:12:00] reason to practice humility. Um, but I, but I love that. It’s, there is just always a different way to look at the same information. Love that. Okay, so we’ve gotten through self-care practice. Uh, what’s one thing you wish you would’ve known right from the beginning? That’s when I was, I actually went to a, a treatment center.

You know, shout out to the Farley Center out there. They’re 12-step based, and they help literally saved my life. In that program, they focus on steps one, two, and three, you know? And I would look up, up there and I’d say, “Well, what about step six? What about step…” You know, and they would really, like, kind of shut me down, say, “Just focus on steps one, two, and three.”

And I was- Okay … I was, that gave me some… I said, “Listen, you want me to drink the Kool-Aid, but you’re not gonna tell the, tell me the recipe?” I wish someone would’ve shared- Oh … like, what the whole program was. Like, give me an overview. Give me some, share some more- Got it … ’cause I, you want me to swallow this, but you’re only gonna share the first three steps, you [00:13:00] know?

And so I, I wish someone would’ve given me more of an overview. And so- Okay … much of my outreach I do now when I go into treatment facilities is I do this broad overview of 12 steps. You know? Got it. What, what that transition looks like, where you could end up. And so that’s something I, I wish someone early on would’ve shared with me.

But, the way it happened for me seemed to work out, so who am I to try to change something that’s working? I get that, though. I think it’s so beneficial to have like, where are we going? Mm-hmm. Like, my, part of my brain is like, “I need to know where we’re going s- so that I feel like I have a clue.”

Yeah. I have trust issues. You want me to trust you? Give me some more. I have trust issues. Don’t we all? Yeah, I love that. Thank you for, that was the end of the lightning round. Oh, I loved that. You get a little dang star trophy, whatever. That was, I, don’t stop doing that. That was… Yeah. I haven’t done that in a long time.

Okay, so I kinda wanna talk about how we got here. Mm-hmm. And I’m always super curious. We’ll get into, like, the stories [00:14:00] ’cause I know everyone wants to hear that. But what happens in childhood really sets- Mm-hmm … the stage for what comes later. So, like, what did your dad do? You’re one of eight siblings.

What was that like for you? Yes. Oh, oh my gosh. So my mom and dad, my dad was a carpenter, you know, really good with wood, just real, almost magical, all rounded corners, really, really artistic. Uh, my mom was a, a mom. And they were very strict Catholics. And they were so strict Catholics that, you know, pre-Vatican II, I don’t know if everyone remembers that.

It’s when the, the priest kind of stopped facing the altar and started facing the congregation. For whatever reason, that flipped my mom out, and she pulled us all out of school, and we were all homeschooled. So now- Oh my goodness … all eight of us are homeschooled from, like, an early age. And then not only that, we originally lived in, excuse me, San Diego.

They disconnected from society and went up to the mountains of Northern California, and we lived in a tent by the side of the river for a year, and then eventually found a home up there in the mountains. So we kinda, like, ran away from [00:15:00] society. So- Wow. Yes. We lived in this town called Horse Creek, which was population 89.

And so if you do the math, like 10% of the population’s in my family when we moved in. You know, it, it was crazy. Wow. It was crazy. Eight kids up in the woods, all homeschooled, and, you know, that gave us a lot of freedom. Uh, built tons of forts and rope swings, and I learned to swim in the river and, you know, just crazy outdoor adventures.

But you start turning 15, 16, and you realize there’s not– there’s, like, one girl within 100 miles, and she doesn’t like me. That becomes a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I ran away. Yeah. Oh, you did? I did. I ran away from home at 16. I, uh, I was very worried ’cause, uh, uh, God bless my mom. I love her.

She’s amazing, but I don’t feel she was an incredible teacher. She would give us books and say, “You know, learn or be stupid. It’s up to you, and what you learn, you teach your sister, and she’ll teach your brother,” and so on and [00:16:00] so forth. But I– that left me with a– I felt like I was falling behind everyone else in the world.

Wow. Yeah. Like, at a gas station, if I saw another kid my age, I’d go ask him math problems and history questions, trying to figure out if I was as smart as them or not. You know, I was, I was really worried that I was not smart enough. And so when I ran away, I went all the way back down to San Diego from Northern California, and, uh, I g- took my GED, and I did a lot of couch surfing.

I stayed with some relatives at first. You know, at 16, I had this Indiana Jones fedora on and a leather jacket ’cause I thought I was Indiana Jones, and I got into San Diego Mesa College at 16 and started taking classes. Wow. And the classes had like 100 people in the classroom, and that’s more than my hometown, so I was just big- big-eyed and motivated, just wanted to just do something with my life.

That’s crazy. Did your, did your parents, uh, what… So your dad was a carpenter. Did you, did either of them drink? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. My dad [00:17:00] had a, he had a temper. He was an alcoholic. Mm … before, I think he did a lot of drugs and partying before, and he kinda fell into an alcoholic groove. And so he was, you know, there was, there was, like, angry sober dad, and then there was Dad who was happy and drunk, you know?

And there was those- Oh, wow … two places, and you had to figure out which dad it was. And it was, uh, yeah, it, it, Dad had a lot going on. And, and there was a… It’s almost like in our family of eight kids the years that my dad had the the hardest drinking were the w- there was a cutoff in the kids that the ones who were exposed to that all became addicts and alcoholics, and the ones after that- Wow

Didn’t. So there was this, there’s definitely, like, a you know, the, the nature versus nurture going on there where you see it’s genetic, but it’s also behavioral. Yeah. You know? So would you… I’m, I’m sure you’ve been to lots of therapy and all that stuff. Do, were you considered complex PTSD from repetitive, like, exposure to violence and?

Th- [00:18:00] that also, and there were some, there were some strange things that my dad did early on that echoed throughout my life. A- and one that pulled on me when I was, I was very young, and we were in the backyard, and he was digging. And I, I must’ve only been five or six years old, and it’s one of my earliest memories.

My dad stops, and he’s leaning on the shovel, and he says, out of the blue, “I wonder what it would feel like to take a human life.” And I remember just being a little kid and that, knowing that’s an out of place statement, but just being like It impacted me. And that kind of followed my life journey, you know?

Into, like, playing with G.I. Joe characters, and as I grew up, always wanting to be the hero, always wanting to chase adrenaline and, finally becoming a Navy SEAL. There was this quest for feeling extreme feelings, you know? Like, what does that feel like? What does everything feel like? What does more feel like?

Yeah, so I, I, I think early on I could trace my addiction to wanting to feel more in a lot of [00:19:00] what I did. Yeah. Did you have a lot of fear growing up? Were you afraid of your dad? I was definitely afraid of my dad. I was, uh, afraid of being stupid. Uh, there was a lot of fear motivated, but at the same time, I was very risk-averse, you know?

The more my dad got mad at me and punished me, the sneakier I began be- became. Mm-hmm. You know, I got– My, my tactics for getting away with shit leveled up as my dad kept trying to catch me. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I became very, um, very stealthy, and my, my risk versus, risk that would normally stop other people, I would just seem like I could just push past that.

I was very much risk-aver- risk– pro risk-averse. I think that’s what you call it, yeah. Uh, it sounds like you were like leaning into risk as opposed to fear. I wa- I was, nah, risk did not bother me, you know? I, I- Yeah … very much, Pro risk … pro risk. Yeah. I was very comfortable with risk. Risky. Yes. Yeah, risky behavior, yeah, which, which checks out considering your youth.

Yeah. But I learned how to carry that. Uh, when I was a young kid, [00:20:00] my dad carried cash in his blue jeans and, you know, sometimes he worked nights and he would just sleep in the, on his couch. And I’d crack the door and see him sleeping, and I’d crawl across the floor kinda timing my crawls with his snore.

Like I’d crawl a little bit more and- Yeah … and I’d get up to his blue jeans, and I’d reach in there and I’d be fishing out some money out of his pocket, knowing if he woke up, he would beat my ass. And I could feel my heart beating and this knot in my chest like I’m about to get caught. I feel like I’ve, I’ve had that knot in my chest my whole life.

Wow. Like, I always felt like I’m about to get caught. And I learned how to carry that knot of just being, “Hmm, be cool, be cool.” Living on the edge. Oh, but yes. And it wasn’t until in recovery that I remember feeling that, “Wait a minute, that’s not there.” That had to be an adjustment too. I mean, I hear that about people, like they get sober and then they’re like they can’t deal with the, uh, peace.

[00:21:00] That’s called serenity. Well, I don’t like it. It’s too quiet. Yeah. We don’t like that shit. Yeah. Okay. So when, so that’s amazing that you were just like, “I’m out.” Mm-hmm. So you’re just on your own, not afraid of risk. Um- Yep. Uh, that is me … you find a way to get an education. Yeah. And- I did a junior college.

Back then it was $3 a unit, so I picked up a job at 7-Eleven and, yeah, started- Wow … chip, chipping away. And, uh, so you’re essentially on your own. Did you have any adult, adults looking out for you? Uh, there was… Like, I, I lived at my grandparents for a little while, get my footing, and then I found a roommate and I, I loved the idea of living on my own and trying to be self-sufficient.

Um- … I remember taking a lot of classes. I started off aerospace engineering and went biochemistry and I kept changing, but I came across this one class. It was a EMT, emergency medical technician. And, uh, with this certificate, I could be a hero, and I remember feeling like I could save [00:22:00] someone. Yeah.

And with that certificate, I heard that there was a, um, clamatory fire department with a fire rescue rig up, back up in northern California was hiring. And so when I turned 18, got up there and I was able to join the fire department That’s amazing at 18 years old 18 years old, you start off as a volunteer, and you get to go on calls, and you get your radio, and, you know, you get to really go towards the action.

You know? You get the vehicle over the embankment and the Jaws of Life and all this cool gear you get to play with, and you get to actually be a hero. And ah, it was so feeding. That’s amazing. The guys and the girls you work with, it was just part of a team. And- Two years in … yeah, two years into that I remember a lot of times we’d get on a call, and you’re, like, hoping the medics get there, like the ambulance.

“Oh, here it goes. Oh, here they go.” And here they come code three, and they show up, and those guys had the jumpsuits and all the trauma gear, and they’d work the patient up, and they’d go code three [00:23:00] back to the hospital. And so I transferred over to an ambulance service, Northern Six Ambulance, worked for them for two years.

Loved sleeping in the bunkhouse, loved that, that my team’s waiting, and me and one other person are going to save the day, and it was, again, just being the hero. Yeah. Totally addicted to that adrenaline rush. Yeah. Two years into that, I was really, looking at law enforcement. Those guys…

There were a lot of calls we couldn’t go into the house because it was a domestic dispute and the scene wasn’t safe. So we’re waiting for the cops to show up, and they could kick in the door, and they could bust skulls and drag out the bad guy. They had faster cars. They had guns. So I started taking, like, all my law enforcement classes, my, you know, advanced driving certs and all these things to transfer to a sheriff’s office that was hiring.

And before I could do that, my chief pulls me aside and goes, “Dice, what are you doing, man? You’re just, you’re jumping all over the place.” Mm-hmm. I said, “Hey, you know, I’m just trying to be all I can be.” Like, [00:24:00] what… I said, “Well, what’s the top of the food-” That’s a good problem … “What’s the top of the food chain?”

And he didn’t think twice. He said, “That’s a Navy SEAL.” And I was like, “All right, I’ll do that.” And I went down to the Navy recruiter the next day, and I signed up for a, it’s called the delayed enlistment program, where they give you six months to get in shape, and I signed up to be a corpsman on a SEAL team.

And my recruiter did not put that down on the application. He put an engineman on a SEAL team, which is a… If you look at a cross-section of a ship, a corpsman would work somewhere towards the sunlight. An engineman would work down in the bowels of the ship where it’s 130 degrees and double hearing protection, and it’s a horrible place to work.

So that recruiter kinda screwed me over, but I, I got in the Navy. I made it to BUD/S, made it through training, got to the SEAL teams, and again, I found this awesome group of guys, and our job was to be a hero. But there was one major change joining the Navy. [00:25:00] Before, the guys would drink and hang out, but when I joined the Navy, it was like my drinking turned pro.

It was part of like the, the tradition, the honor. I mean, it was, there was how much you could drink and you can hold your own and all the, the cheers and everything. And if you had a bad day, I could pull out a flask and I could be there for you. I mean, it was… The utility that alcohol is used in the military for everything, to advance, to if you got in trouble, if you got separated, if you got, if anything happened, it’s the solution.

And I loved having a solution in the form of a flask for any situation. So I embraced drinking wholeheartedly when I joined the Navy. It was like almost it was issued to me. “Here, Nick, for your emotional issues, here’s some alcohol,” yeah. That’s wild. Did you have any reservations of turning out like your dad?

Early on, I, because of my dad, I stayed away from weed, I stayed away from coke, I stayed away from ecstasy as I got exposed to it in my early teenage years. [00:26:00] And so also working for the fire department ambulance, they drug test you, so that was easy. But alcohol was kinda okay. I didn’t see it as the same thing.

So because of my dad, I had stayed away from drugs, the drugs other than alcohol. Mm-hmm. But in the Navy Alcohol was the only drug I was allowed to do, and I embraced it Okay. Yes. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So tell me a little bit about, maybe this is where the SEAL stories come in. Did you get deployed?

You got to… I know you, you said you, uh, served with Jocko Willink and- Yes, got deployed. Uh, yeah, Jocko and I- … and his son and- … were at SEAL Team 2 together. That’s crazy. And that’s what Jocko do. That, he’s scary now, but guys, but back then, there was, at SEAL Team 2, if you got in trouble, if you were a shitbag, the penalty was two minutes in the Milvan with Jocko.

That was the punishment. Two minutes in what? In the Milvan. A Milvan’s like a big Conex box. You know, it’s a big lockable shipping container. Oh. And if you got in trouble, the penalty was they’re gonna throw you in that Milvan with Jocko and lock [00:27:00] the door. That was- And you guys had to fight it out? Listen, we were so scared of that happening.

There’s no way we’re gonna let that happen. It was like this implied threat when I checked into the SEAL team. Um- Did you ever see that happen? Did you ever see anybody get locked in there with him? I, no, I never saw it happen- I would have loved that … but I was scared as heck of it. Yeah. But he was, he was a scary guy back then.

He was fast, and thank goodness I was faster. On long runs I would, he’d be like, “I’m gonna get you if you… I’m gonna kick your ass if I pass you.” And I, he would never let him pass me. But yeah, he, he was, he was a super soldier even back then, man. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Props. I know he went on the Tim Ferriss podcast and he w- he was described as, like, the scariest I know.

So it’s like that, that checks out. Yeah, he looks like a- The scariest among scary men, yes. Yeah. He, he really does look like a action figure. But, uh- Mm-hmm … to be fair, so do you. Oh, man. Um, that’s wild. So were, were you actually, were you ever deployed with him? Uh, no, we were on, sister, called sister [00:28:00] platoon, so we did deploy.

Okay. We had different missions over there. Okay … and this is, let me preface all this. My first deployment out there was pre-9/11 We were not at war. Ah, okay. And so it’s a different tempo. Whole different. Whole different tempo. Lots of training. The good schools were few and far between. It felt like you’re a plumber who’s wor- trained to work on pipes their entire career, but they’ve never actually seen a pipe.

Ah. So we were, like, ready to put me to… I mean, there was so much that’s getting spent up. You’re, “Something’s gonna happen,” and nothing happens. And, “Something’s gonna happen,” and nothing happens. And if I’m honest, I’m the type of guy, if you don’t give me a mission, I’m gonna make one up. You know? I, I’m gonna go out and I’m gonna go just get myself into mischief.

And, uh- Uh-oh. Tell me about the mischief … it was… Oh, uh, we were out- Everybody wants to hear the mischief. Where did you get deployed? Are you allowed to say? Uh, yeah. It was, my first deployment was a med cruise out in the Mediterranean. And, uh, at one point we’re doing some training at the Rock of Gibraltar, the most southern-est tip of Spain.

[00:29:00] Yeah. And what’s neat about the Rock of Gibraltar, if people aren’t familiar with it, it’s this giant rock right there on the Strait of Gibraltar, and it’s it’s a very strategic position because it kinda covers all the traffic going through the, the Mediterranean out to the Atlantic, you know? It, it’s a very advantageous place to, to, to own.

And, and you’d think it would belong to Spain because it’s the southernmost tip of Spain, but no, England own it. Brit- it’s English. They own it. Yeah. Yeah. And so there’s this, this kind… You can tell there’s some animosity between them being there occupying part of Spain. And I could feel it when I was stationed there, and we were doing all our tunnel warfare training in the Rock of Gibraltar, which is, you know, you learn very quickly not to get in a gunfight in a tunnel because there’s only so much you can do, but they do spend a lot of time training you up how to do it properly.

So we’re spending a lot of time on the Rock of Gibraltar, in and out of it and all around it, and my buddy, his name’s Suef, and [00:30:00] I, uh… I’m diving you out, Suef, sorry, but it’s been almost 30 years. I think you’re fine. It’s fine. Yeah. Um- He won’t hear this. I’m like, yeah. And I said, “Hey, let’s go for a run, man.”

And we go for a run, and we go all the way up to the top of the rock. And you get up there at the very top of the Rock of Gibraltar, and it’s beautiful. You can see Africa. It’s just a beautiful v- view. And, um, when you get up to the very top, there’s this huge British flag, giant flag waving proudly up for all of Spain to see.

Oh. And I’m looking at it, and I’m saying, “Huh.” And I’m always a sucker for rooting for the little guy, you know? And so I’m looking at this, and, uh, I say, “Hey, Suef, cover me.” And he’s like, you know, he’s wearing his running outfit. He’s like, “What? What are you talking about?” And I, I turn over to the flag, and I rip out my spider coil, and I cut the rope, and I start pulling down the flag.

And it’s, you know, the flag looks small up there, but as it comes down it gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. And as it’s coming down, I can hear these alarms going, “Brr, brr, brr.” And I look [00:31:00] down the hill, way down at the base, and I can see these flashing lights. It’s like a, a quick reaction force has been launched in response to this, you know, this huge thing we’re doing.

Oh, my gosh. And so I bring the flag down, and I wad it up as much as I can, and I wrap it under my shirt, and I yell to Suif, “Run!” And we start running down the hill. And, you know, the, the road crisscrosses as it goes up the hill, and we’re just kind of beelining straight down. And we see a minivan coming down the hill, and we wave it to stop.

And, and, you know, it’s a guy saying, “What’s up, guys?” And we, and we say, “Hey, we’re late for a meeting. Can you please give us a ride down the hill? We really gotta get back.” He says, “Not a problem. Jump in.” Right? And so we get in the, the minivan, and we just lay on the ground. Like we’re tired. And he’s looking at us, and as we, we’re looking up at him, we can see all the lights of the response vehicles whizzing by the bus.

And he brings us down out of the, the base and through the gates of the compound, and we thank him so much. We get out of the minivan, and [00:32:00] we make a beeline back to our barracks, and we stash the flag, and we sit there like we’re, like we’re cleaning our gear. Trying to look innocent. And our chief walks by, and he’s…

I mean, at this point, the whole base is on alert, and there’s just, cops or soldiers everywhere. And my chief goes, “I don’t know what’s going on, but I’m pretty sure it has something to do with you two.” And we’re like, “No, Chief, we’re absolutely… We’re, there’s nothing going on here.” Innocent, we’re innocent.

And he, he leaves us alone, and the, the scene dies down. We complete our training, and before we leave the Rock of Gibraltar, it’s a common team guy, cool guy thing, is they get out on the tarmac with the giant rock in the background, and everyone gets out there, and they do a cool team guy pose. You know, like, “Ah.”

Mm-hmm. And we all kind of go, “Hooyah,” and they t- take a picture. And so Suif and I make our way towards the back of the whole platoon lined up there, and just before they take the picture- Oh, yeah … we open the flag up behind the whole platoon. So we have all our officers in charge, our chiefs and everyone [00:33:00] going like this with the flag in the background.

They snap the picture, and this is old school Polaroid. There’s no digital image. And then Suif and I wad up the flag, and put it away, and stand there like nothing happened. So that picture doesn’t get developed till we get back stateside and go to a one-hour developing store. And so we have this national treasure that’s been stolen off, and our, all our leadership is there ch- posing in front of it.

Oh my gosh. And that was our insurance that if we went down, everyone was going down with us. You are nuts. Um- So is this one of the stories that the lawyers told you not to put in the book? Oh, yeah. That’s what I had to fight with to put in. I was like, “Come on.” Um- That’s a great story. Oh, you are crazy. You is crazy.

Oh my gosh. That’s a combination of, you know, risk, being pro-risk, but also not really having a clear sense of boundaries or big picture. I mean, we could have- Yeah … easily gotten our entire SEAL [00:34:00] command kicked out of that training venue forever. We- Right … there were so many other ramifications that, m- I wasn’t even allowing myself to look at.

And- Yeah … that, there’s a clear pattern of not being able to see big pictures throughout my career as an addict alcoholic. Yeah. That’s crazy. So when did when did you start… You know, as they say in 12 step, it’s fun, fun with problems, and then it’s just problems. I kinda wanna fast-track you to the- Sure

just problems, ’cause I do wanna spend a little time on, on talking about your book. Yeah. Um, well, for me, you know, SEAL teams, I knew I was drinking a lot. And then as you get comfortable, I began to dabble in some coke and ecstasy. I wasn’t getting, I wasn’t getting written up for it or caught, but I could feel the writing on the wall that if I kept doing this, sooner or later I would.

And the, the question of stopping wasn’t even a, a question for me. And so when it came time to re-enlist, it was like, stay in and get busted, or do I get out? And so I got out. I, I, I gave up literally my passion to be a SEAL [00:35:00] so I could drink- Mm-hmm … and use how I wanted to. You know? It was like, It was crazy how addiction had blinded me and had robbed me of a career path.

Yeah. I became a private contractor, like a hired gun, and I went back overseas several times. Had a lot of trouble re- coming back stateside. I would deploy again and had a lot of trouble being okay in the, in the States without drinking or using more. Yeah. So my addiction spiraled, uh, get, got fairly out of control.

I remember switching from coke to meth because it made good financial sense, you know, it, it was cheaper, and that quickly spiraled into my health degrading. Mm. And I, I ended up, uh, when I hit bottom, I think I checked into rehab at 130 pounds. Um- Ooh. I know. Just skin and bones, and- How, how tall are you?

Uh, 6’2″. So it was definitely- Yeah. I, um- 130 pounds. Yeah. Is that the picture you showed me before where you was like- Yeah, that’s a picture that I, I keep on my desk to show me [00:36:00] that, hey, that life’s still available. You know, I, I, I’m here today because I’m not choosing that. And so I keep that picture on my desk that I look at every day.

Yes. Oh my gosh. I’m surprised you’re so… Okay, that’s, uh, that’s really scary. I mean, I’m, I’m 5’3″ and 130 pounds. I’m a little fluffy right now. It was scary. But I cannot imagine somebody being 6’2″ and 130 pounds. Yeah, skin and bones. That’s wild. Yeah. And, you know, trying to still, to not be in denial. Like, I’m just running a mile, you know?

I’m, I… And you look in the mirror just the right way, and you kind of convince- Yeah … yourself that you’re still okay. Yeah, denial is strong. Ooh, so much denial. Denial is so strong. But that’s me. So what ha- what happened, what was the catalyst for you getting sober? I think a big one was back when that H1N1, the swine flu pandemic came through.

Oh, yeah. You remember that? Well, my, at the time, I was married and I had a small son, Ronan, and he was, two years old in daycare, and I was on a three-day bender tweaking [00:37:00] out of my mind. And I get a call from daycare, and the, I li- listen to the voicemail, and the voicemail says, “There’s been an exposure of the H1N1, um, virus- Mm

at the daycare. We’re having all the parents come and pick up their kids.” And in my head, I was like, “My son’s in trouble. I need to save him,” you know? “Okay, let me just, let me get my shit together.” And then, you know, my wife’s calling and it’s going to voicemail, and the daycare’s calling and going to voicemail, and my wife’s calling, and I’m, I’m trying to put this pipe down and get out of there.

I need to save my son, and for three hours, I couldn’t get out of that room. Oh. And I remember turning off my phone and just using- And that was when the spirit, I could hear it break, and I stopped looking in the mirror, and I hated who I’d become. I just hated. My whole life I trained to be a hero, and I couldn’t do that anymore.

I couldn’t not even for my son, I could not do that. And that was- Yeah … that was the end. That was me admitting that I was [00:38:00] a, I was an alcoholic. And- And so I ended up in treatment 12 step, didn’t- Is that when you went to, did you say it was called the Farley Center? The Farley Center in Williamsburg, Virginia.

Yep. Mm-hmm. Um, I randomly picked it out of a phone book. There was no rhyme or reason. Uh, my therapist there, his name was Dre Summers, and, for some universal line and this guy could see through my bullshit, and it was a, I think one of the– On day six, my insurance said I had to be transferred out of treatment, and I was, I was so angry because by then I, I wanted to stay.

I was like I know I need this. If you kick me out- Oh, no … I’m gonna, I’m gonna relapse for sure.” And so I asked my therapist for a four-hour pass, and he was very skeptical. He thought I was gonna go rob a bank or something, ’cause I needed to come up with $9,000 to stay in treatment. And, uh- Mm. I know. And so I, I told him I wasn’t gonna rob a bank.

I had my car. I wanted to sell it for money for rehab. And so he [00:39:00] gave me the pass, and I, I went to CarMax, and I sold my car, and I remember standing in the parking lot going- Mm-hmm … “I don’t have to go back. You know, this $9,000, this is a good run. I don’t have to go back.” And contemplating not going back to treatment.

But something in me wanted, you know, wanted to be someone different. Like, I hated that guy so much. This might be my ticket out. And I went back to rehab, and I endorsed the back of the check, and I said, “Will you guys accept this?” ‘Cause I didn’t trust myself cashing it. And they took the check with the signature on the back.

Wow. And so I stayed in treatment. And that was literally my, my, in my, you know, step one, my sponsor asked me to write when did you, you know, know you were an addict? And I wrote about when I was my, left my son in the daycare, and that’s when I knew. And step two, he said, you know, “When did you become aware, you know, when did hope come back into your life?

When did you get that?” I said, “Those first several days in treatment, I remember this shift taking place [00:40:00] where maybe this will work, and this little bit of a sense of I, I need to change, and this might do it.” And that was my step two moment. And then for step three, he asked me, “When did you become willing to take suggestions?”

And it was me standing in the parking lot with that check. And when I decided to come back to Farley and give it, that was me doing whatever it took. Whatever you told me to do, I was willing to do. I was just gonna say willingness to go to any length for your sobriety. Any length. There was one therapist there at the Farley Center who said that, uh, to this day, I don’t know, really know where she got it from, but she said that when I was a kid, I never learned how to self-soothe.

And so she wanted me to go to Walmart and get a teddy bear, and for the rest of my time in treatment, wanted me to carry the teddy bear around my, wherever I went. And so I went out to Walmart. I didn’t understand this. I was very like, “I’m a Navy SEAL. We don’t do teddy bears.” And she just said, “That’s the suggestion.”

And so I got the teddy bear. I put a little arm, [00:41:00] skull and crossbone armband on him to make him look tough. But I carried it all through my time in treatment, just walking around with this teddy bear in my How long were you in treatment for? I did 34 days in treatment- Okay … and then transferred to an inta- inpatient, intensive outpatient program, and then, jumped in the back pocket of my sponsor and, you know, the next year was all step work.

Yeah. That’s beautiful. Yeah. H- did it, how long did it take you to get through the steps? Uh, it took, I went as fast and as hard as I could, and it took me, like, 14 months. Yep, 14 months. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, if you really do it, the thorough- It takes what it takes for everyone, you know? Yeah. It does.

Yeah. I’ve seen people do it in a year, sometimes. Listen, I, the only thing I know of my, all my years of sobriety is I don’t know what’s right for anybody else. Yeah. But I do believe that things happen on God’s timing. Mm-hmm. Like, however it happens, I guess that’s how it was supposed to happen for you, whether it’s six months, uh, [00:42:00] two years.

Exactly. I think my h- my husband’s been sober over, you know, almost 40 years and he didn’t do a single step for his first year of sobriety. Wow. Yep. Yeah. When I watched my wife, she has, I think she’s 11 years now. When I watched her go through the first step, the step work, I was like, “You’re doing it wrong.”

You’re doing it all wrong. I had to shut up and talk to my sponsor. You’re not doing it my way. I know. I had to let it, let it happen. I could not- It’s scary, though. Yes, but I was worried- I get that it’s scary … I was worried that she was gonna come out the other side and, “Who are you? Why am I with you?”

Totally- I know. Yeah … changed. And yeah, but it worked out. Did you meet in recovery? Uh, no. I, when we met I was attending classes at Oldham University and she was my professor.

Dude, you are scandalous on a multitude of levels. I know. I love that about you. Oh my. I love that. Oh my God. Yeah, I g- I got with my husband when I was five months sober and he [00:43:00] was, like, five or six years sober. Oh my goodness. 13th ever. 30, 30-plus years later, so far, so well. Wow. I know. Yep. You’re the story that messes up the curve.

I know, yeah. That’s right. But we definitely stayed together by doing the steps, for sure. Yes. We would do, uh, inventories. Like, I’d go to my sponsor and I’d be like, “Bobby did this and Bobby did that,” and she’d be like, “I don’t sponsor him, so we’re gonna talk about your part.” That’s so cool. Uh, and we have a common language to talk to each other.

Yeah. That is so, and our kids, we have five kids together, and I can hear 12-step recovery in the way they talk to their friends. Yeah. Oh, it’s such a gift. It is such a gift. That’s amazing. Hey, let’s talk about your book a little bit. Sure. Um, so does, is it focused on, what kind of solutions did you feel like were, was important to put in the book?

Just a side note, we have been talking about my book this whole time. I know. Yeah. Yeah. No, my book, what I did, guys, um, I endeavored to [00:44:00] make a self-help recovery book- Uh, hidden in an amazing, crazy, wild, halfway illegal story. And it is, it’s my life, how it unfolded. A- and you will truly not like the character in the story.

You will not- Mm. You… I was not a good guy. I did a lot of- Okay. This is not a hero, shoot ’em up, bang, bang, Navy SEAL book. This is a guy who blew up his life. You know, really just blew up everything he held dear, turned into someone he swore he’d never be, and then how he found his way out again. So- Okay

in my book, I chronicle all of that, my journey through the 12 steps, my journey into recovery, my journey back to school, my associate’s, undergraduate, master’s, PhD. And in that journey, looking back at 12-step recovery and go, “How did this happen? Wait a minute. There’s more here going on than I realized.”

And finding the embedded theory found in 12-step recovery. Mm. And then endeavoring to teach other therapists, “Listen, this is stuff you already know [00:45:00] how to do, they’re already doing in 12-step recovery. If you wanna better support your patients, learn this pattern. Help them in these s- six ways,” you know?

And so I really endeavored to kinda educate modern therapists to what’s going on in 12-step recovery. And so, uh, the, I call it the holistic change model, and it’s a, it’s a way of looking at 12-step recovery through a therapist lens, you know? You- Okay … you’re gonna get out, y- the first three steps are all stages of change.

Are they ready to receive a message of recovery? Steps four and five are narrative therapy. Steps six, seven, eight, and nine, it’s all cognitive behavioral therapy. Okay. And steps 10, 11, and 12 is e- existential therapy. And if you follow that pattern, you can see how 12-step recovery, I think there’s over 220 different 12-step fellowships in the world, and they cover, you know, behavioral addictions, substance abuse addictions.

Yeah. They cover everything. How can so many things that ail the [00:46:00] human condition be worked out with one 12-step format? And it’s because it follows this curve of recovery- Interesting … and redemption. I love that. I, I feel like there’s, um, a lot of people who actually build their entire careers off of bashing 12 steps, which makes me insane.

It makes me insane. And I get that there are some parts of it that are problematic. You know, I, I wrote a book about 12 steps to sort of- Mm-hmm … you know, clear up the misconceptions. But I, I, um, just, you know, you and I both love, like, we get it. We, we- Yeah … see the magic out of it, and it’s, I think it’s important.

I love that you’re addressing the professionals because they are often sort of like the gateway into a process- Right … that people can do often for free. Yes. Not, not everybody has the res- like, when I blew up my life, I didn’t have any money to go to therapy. I didn’t even know about rehab 32 years ago.

Exactly. So. Yeah. [00:47:00] Yeah. And 12 step recovery is in every language on every continent all over the world. Yes. And now because of Zoom, it’s anywhere you are. If you’re- Anywhere … you have kids at home, no worries, you can stay at home. If you’re in the hospital, you can go to a meeting. Yeah. If you’re in Bangladesh, guess what?

You got all kinds of meetings. Yeah. Uh. All kinds of meetings too. I think that’s one of the things that people don’t understand, that there’s different types of meetings. There’s, uh, women only, there’s men only. There’s, there’s- Whatever. There’s, um- … crystal meth anonymous meetings. There’s pill- Yeah

anonymous meetings. There’s, yeah. But there’s like speaker meetings, topic discussion- Sh- … literature meetings. You could just get with other people. Underearners anonymous meetings. Yeah. Yeah. There, it is so wild. Yeah. And get this, here’s two more cool things. Remember when Australia was on fire and it was all burning?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You can attend a meeting in Australia and help support them through recovery. Mm. Or if you just enjoy the Australian accent, you can attend their online [00:48:00] meetings. Yeah. When New York was on lockdown, I could log into New York, into meetings in New York, and be part of their recovery process.

Yes. When I got my 10-year medallion, I logged into my online home group, and my mom logged in from Northern California. Oh. My sister logged in from San Diego, and my brother logged in from Maui, and we were all in the same meeting at the same time. That’s amazing. Isn’t that awesome? I love that. That is really beautiful.

Mm-hmm. Listen, we could, we could obviously chat like forever. Oh, I gotta come back. Please invite me. Please. I, this is so much fun. Yeah, anytime you wanna come back. Absolutely. I, I would love to have that ’cause we could, uh, dive into some more solutions. I know you have sort of presentations and things that you do.

Yes. Um, so we’ll get into it. We’ll do part two. But where can people find you? Okay. Um, well there’s a couple other things. I’m actually working on a TED Talk. If you go to O- my YouTube page, Dr. Dice, Dr. Tony Dice. Okay. All my social media is #drdice. I, I’m always putting out content on emotional compulsivity, on [00:49:00] new- Mm-hmm

ways of looking at recovery. I, I’m trying to be very active and trying to get this message of recovery out there as wide as I can. Uh, I’m also really- Yeah … and I’m gonna s- highlight this one area high performers. You know, whether it be military, law enforcement, first responders, high performers, there is a lot of this emotional compulsivity, #addiction, involved in people who have, y- you know, they’re either addicted to their job, they’re addicted to the gentleman, they’re addicted to winning.

And all of that before their life blows up is very rewarding a- and is very approved by society, but doesn’t mean you’re having trouble at home, doesn’t mean you’re having trouble inside with identity, it doesn’t mean you’re having trouble with your kids. All those things can be still looked at and addressed before your whole life gets blown up.

So- Yeah … I really am trying to draw attention to the different ways in which we use the word addiction. I think it’s a much- Yeah … a much broader definition is required Yeah, absolutely. I always say [00:50:00] that the purpose of addiction is distraction. It’s distraction from those feelings that we want to avoid- Mm-hmm.

Yes … mostly. But I really appreciate addressing the high performers ’cause it’s so easy to delude ourselves that everything’s fine if you still have the job, and the money, and the car, and the house, and all those things. Yeah, success. Yes. Yeah, but typically your relationships are in shambles though, so it comes at the cost.

And when our relationships are in shambles- Mm-hmm … it can lead to a very dark place. Oh, gosh. And, you know, I’m not gonna poo-poo addicts and alcoholics. To me, they’re the most interesting people to talk to. They have the most dynamic, and if you look throughout the pages of history, history is made by addicts and alcoholics.

You, you, you know, you look at the people who built the pyramids, I’m sure they weren’t balanced individuals, and no offense, Elon Musk. A lot of writers, musicians. There, there’s a lot of people out there, high performers, that have a lot of unbalance or addiction that they’re dealing with, that ob- obsessive [00:51:00] compulsive nature of them helps them change the world.

I, I- Yeah … yes. And I think for many of us it just needs to be harnessed. Find some semblance- Yeah … of balance in your life and you can still achieve amazing things. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Workaholism is my favorite addiction.

Yes. Yes. Um- Anyway, listen, thank you so much for joining me today. Absolutely. I, I really enjoyed- Oh, I did too … our chat with you today. Thank you so much, and we’ll have you back for round two. Yes. Yeah, when the book comes out, we’ll talk about it, sign a copy. It’ll be awesome. It’ll be fun. That’d be great.

Very great. Thanks so much. Thank you. Take care.