I recently sat down with my dear friend and author, John Loxley to discuss the fundamentals of sobriety. John is 15 years sober and works in mental health services in the UK.
We weren’t talking about shiny breakthroughs or dramatic transformations.
We were talking about the basics — the things that quietly keep sobriety intact, year after year.
Because here’s the truth: most people don’t relapse because they don’t know enough. They relapse because they slowly stop doing the things that keep them emotionally regulated, supported, and self-aware.
This episode was a reminder of what really matters.
Lesson #1: Early Sobriety Is a Learning Phase — Listening Matters
One of the first things we talked about was listening.
When people are new to sobriety, there’s often a strong urge to explain themselves, justify their story, or be understood. I remember feeling that way myself — desperate to make sure someone got me.
But recovery starts to shift when listening becomes the priority.
Listening to people who’ve been there.
Listening to patterns.
Listening instead of reacting.
There’s a time to talk — especially with sponsors, therapists, or trusted friends — but meetings and early recovery spaces are often best used as classrooms, not stages.
Takeaway: You don’t need to have the answers. You just need to be willing to learn.
Lesson #2: You Can’t Do Sobriety Alone (No Matter How Independent You Are)
A lot of people want to get sober “on their own.” Not because they’re lazy — but because they’re private, capable, or burned by past systems.
But isolation is where addiction thrives.
Whether it’s 12-step programs, SMART Recovery, therapy, coaching, or peer support — connection isn’t optional. You don’t need everyone. You need someone.
And just as important: those people aren’t there to fix you. They’re there to walk with you.
Lesson #3: Sobriety Has to Stay the Top Priority
This might be the most important lesson from the episode.
Anytime sobriety stops being the priority — even years in — things start to unravel. Not always dramatically. Often quietly.
You stop meditating.
You stop checking in.
You stop telling the truth.
You stop doing the practices.
And slowly… your nervous system takes over.
John shared a powerful story about going on vacation, feeling great, and unintentionally leaving his recovery behind — only to realize how quickly emotional chaos can return when the practices stop.
Sobriety isn’t something you “graduate” from.
It’s something you maintain.
Lesson #4: Identity Drives Behavior
One thing I’m passionate about is identity.
You’re not trying to get sober.
If you didn’t drink today, you are sober.
Every sober action is a vote for the kind of person you’re becoming.
Instead of obsessing over what’s wrong with you, it can be incredibly powerful to ask:
- Who do I admire?
- What traits do they embody?
- What small actions would reinforce those traits?
Sobriety is the foundation — not the finish line.
Lesson #5: Triggers Are Teachers (Even Though We Hate That)
We talked a lot about triggers — emotional reactions that feel bigger than the situation in front of us.
If a response feels disproportionate, it’s almost always about the past.
Triggers aren’t signs that you’re failing.
They’re invitations to heal.
When something activates fear, shame, or rage, there’s usually something unresolved underneath. And once you work through it — whether through therapy, journaling, EMDR, or self-inquiry — that trigger loses its grip.
There’s often real growth hiding underneath discomfort.
Lesson #6: You Don’t Need to Win — You Need to Understand
One of the most relatable moments in the conversation was about conflict.
Many of us learned early on that arguments are about winning. But there are no winners in emotional battles — only distance.
A simple shift like:
- “Help me understand how you feel”
- “This is what I’m hearing — is that right?”
can completely change the outcome of a conversation.
Feeling understood often dissolves the fight entirely.
Action Steps You Can Take This Week
If you want to apply what we talked about, start here:
- Choose one daily recovery practice
Meditation, journaling, meetings, movement — consistency matters more than intensity. - Check your priority list
Ask honestly: Is sobriety still at the top — or has it slipped? - Identify one trigger
When you feel emotionally hijacked, ask: What does this remind me of? - Clarify your identity
Write down 5 character traits you want to embody — then choose one small daily action that supports them. - Strengthen accountability
Make sure there’s at least one person you can be fully honest with — without editing yourself.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- 12-Step Recovery Programs – For connection, structure, and accountability
- SMART Recovery – A non-12-step alternative focused on tools and self-management
- Atomic Habits by James Clear – Identity-based behavior change
- Unwinding Anxiety by Dr. Judson Brewer – Understanding habit loops and emotional patterns
- Meditation & Journaling – Daily practices for emotional regulation
- EMDR Therapy – Trauma-focused healing for emotional triggers
👊🏼Need help applying this information to your own life?
Here are 3 ways to get started:
🎁Free Guide: 30 Tips for Your First 30 Days – With a printable PDF checklist
Grab your copy here: https://www.soberlifeschool.com
☎️Private Coaching: Make Sobriety Stick
https://www.makesobrietystick.com
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Transcript:
John Loxley
===
[00:00:00] Well, John, thanks so much for joining me today. It’s always a pleasure. Nice to see you, Arlene. Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you. Um, and it’s so funny ’cause we scheduled this call like, well, like a couple months ago. My calendar is getting crazy. Um, but I was like, Hey, what do you wanna talk about? Like, I, I’m always happy to talk to you no matter what, but you were like, yeah, let’s talk about the fundamentals of sobriety.
And I was like, oh, what a perfect time of year to be talking about it. As, as it stands, uh, it’s January 6th. As we’re recording this, I’m gonna bump this up in the. And the, uh, publishing schedule. ’cause I have like two months worth of two or three months worth of interviews recorded. But I’m gonna, I’m gonna bump you up.
Don’t Oh, that’s why I like, I like to be, uh, taken to the point of the queue. Yeah. We’ll just move you to the front of the line because I think it’s really important to talk about this stuff and I’ll just throw out some of the topics right up front [00:01:00] for people so that they can kind of know what to expect.
Yeah. Um, I do have a PDF on my website@tchat.com. There is a PDF. Called, um, make, uh, what, what is it called? I already forgot what it was called. How to Make Sobriety Stick. So it’s really like the top five mistakes people make early in recovery and how to avoid them. But, um, I also thought it would be good if we start with some fundamentals.
Like if you’re brand new sober, you know, and I, I recognize that people are starting this at varying degrees of intensity, right? There are the people that are like, just got outta rehab or need to go to rehab or do you know what I mean? That burned their life all the way to the ground. And there’s people who are like, this alcohol’s not working for me, but I’m having a hard time quitting.
So kind of runs, but no matter where people are at, I feel like the fundamentals are virtually the same. How do you feel about that? [00:02:00] Yeah, I mean, I, I do, I I, I don’t know exactly which kind of fundamentals you’re gonna run through. ’cause there’s one of them that’s like, you know, well, there’s a, well the main one that’s jumping into my mind is to basically listen, listen.
Oh, nobody likes that. And I don’t know what the fundamentals exactly are that, that you are gonna run through, but I’m, I’m sure we’ll probably pretty much align. But, um, I, I suppose the reason why I said that one is like, I’ve had quite a lot of recent experience of, of, uh, helping kind of newcomers, um, to recovery and.
Um, after maybe like a, you know, a bit of time of kind of, of not really doing that much type of work due to family commitments and stuff. And that is one of the main things that I’ve noticed is, um, a lacking ability to listen. And it, and it kind of, it reminded me of, you know, when I was early in recovery and, and you know, how, how I was exactly the same really.
[00:03:00] ’cause I think a lot of people, including myself, when I first got sober, um, the irony of it was, even though I had no answers whatsoever, like in my life was in the toilet, I still thought that I could talk the talk and I still always had lots to say about everything and, you know, so kind of very compassionate, but strong kind of willed.
Old timers would say to me things like, take the cotton wool out of your ears and put it in your mouth and, you know, um, just sit and listen. Like you don’t have to say anything. Just sit and listen and things like that, which I didn’t really do. I didn’t really follow that advice to honest, but now I’m kind of like, I understand that wisdom because, um, yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t really know anything about anything at that point in my life.
And everything that I’d ever tried had, um, turned to shit really. So, yeah. I was, [00:04:00] I was kind of like, I was humbled by my experience of addiction, but my ego was still raging, I think at the, at the beginning. Well, to be fair to you, and people that are new, I feel like, um, and I remember having that same experience because I had this sponsor and we would meet and she would do all the talking, and I’m like, when do I get this?
I’m like, I thought you were supposed to listen. But the, I feel like looking back, I feel what, like what was happening is I was so lost that I felt the need to explain myself. I needed. To make sure that the person I was talking to understood me. Like I, I desperately wanted to understand myself and I wanted to be understood, and I, I didn’t feel like anybody got me.
Like nobody gets me, nobody understands me. I’m terminally unique. You know how that goes. And I think. [00:05:00] I think the talking is a desperate attempt to, it’s like comes from this need to be understood and validated. So I think there can be room for both of these things. I think it’s so important that people are reminded that, yeah, you need to, this is a learn, the beginning is a learning process, which requires listening.
Yeah, definitely. Listening and self reflection. Yeah, I mean, I think that like, it depends on, depends on the, um, the circumstances as well. Yeah. I if, if you’re in like meetings, for example, if you’re in 12 step meetings, I think it’s a really good idea for newcomers to kind of listen rather than, you know, obviously you get the opportunities to share and I’m not saying they shouldn’t share, I’m just saying that.
Right, right. You know, make it like the make your focus listening and taking in what’s being said. But then when you sat down with a sponsor or with a friend or you know a fellow that’s in recovery, that’s then your opportunity to. Really kind of get things off your chest and [00:06:00] like you said, be understood.
Yeah. And, and, and we did. That’s the connection part of it, isn’t it? Like we need that. Yeah. We need to understand that when we’re talking to that person, that they empathize, um, with what we’re saying and, um, you know, and that you’re both on the same page. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It’s so interesting because all this is so nuanced because when you’re new, uh, you know, I, and, and listen, you and I are both 12 step oriented, so a lot of our experiences are gonna be coming from this and I realize that not everybody listening to this is gonna be into, into that.
And, and what I would say is, um, you can take the front, the principles of what we’re talking about and apply it to your situation. So I just kind of a little disclaimer there. Yeah. And which really kind of brings one of the bullet points to surface that I wanted to talk about was, um, connection and support.
And so you and I have a lot of familiarity with 12 Step. That’s where I got my connection and [00:07:00] support. Um, and I do realize that there are other kinds of groups that. Do the fundamentally the same thing, but going it alone is like, one of the big biggest mistakes I see people making is I realize that there is a need for a lot of people.
I bet you hear this too, that a lot of people wanna get sober on their own. I just wanna do it on my own. Yeah. I work in services, so I never push anybody in any one direction. Right. But I always say to them that you will not survive on your own. Like you need some sort, you need to find your people. You need to find your support group.
Whether that’s smart recovery, 12 step recovery, whatever the case may be, there’s loads of different recovery treatment options out there these days. Yeah. Um, we’re recover, we’re recovery agnostic. Like we don’t care what program you do, just get support. I just found the thing that works for [00:08:00] me and that’s why I do 12 step, but that doesn’t work for everybody.
And that’s fine. And, and absolutely find the thing that works for you. I mean, if ultimately, usually when you’re in active addiction, you’re generally pretty unhappy. So if you find something that isn’t making you happy, then don’t do that thing. You know, like, you don’t wanna be, you don’t want to be in recovery and miserable.
So, yeah. Find, find something that where you feel happy, you know, you feel like the, um, like you said, the connection, like the connections there with the people that you’re Yeah. Spending your time with. ’cause that’s really, that’s really the most important thing. Yeah. But then the caveat to that I would also say is for, especially for people that are new, um, don’t, don’t think that those people are gonna fix you.
Right. You know, because like we can put a lot of onus on. [00:09:00] The other, the other person, I mean, what you’ve gotta remember is we’re all not very well. Like, we’re all like, we’re all ill, we’re all, it’s not the hotbed of mental health is what you’re, no. By the way, you mentioned that you’re in services, you’re in the uk.
I mean, it’s kind of a dead giveaway by the accent. Yeah. But s it services like mental health treatment or. Is that, what, is that what that is? Services Addiction. Addiction Services. Addiction. So I work addiction for, I’m a manager for a, it’s actually the biggest drug and alcohol service in Europe. It’s called Change Grow Live.
Okay. Um, and it’s basically, um, a recovery, well, a treatment slash recovery service. Oh, okay. It spans the whole of the UK in different cities, um, and obviously Europe as well. And so the, the people that we, that come to our service are the people that are basically suffering from any sort of addictions.
Okay. Yeah. So you, so you’re, um, Agnos, is it, is it a government [00:10:00] run nonprofit or, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, so yeah. Okay. So we’re highlighting support and connection, listening. Um, what I really like about 12 Step is that the actual steps offer a self-reflection process. Right. Um, and for me, one of the most helpful self-reflection processes was around doing the self-examination.
Like the fourth step is the inventory. Yeah. And so for me that was a really helpful place to sort of unpack all my baggage, so to speak. Like I, when I got, I got sober when I was 25 and. Now I feel like that’s pretty young. ’cause I’m 57. I was like, God damn, I was young. But at 25, like my spirit felt old and brittle and like I was bottomed out [00:11:00] at 25.
And so it was so helpful for me to be able to go through the four step process and, and just unpack what I felt like was a lot of baggage. I had a lot of emotions, a lot of messy resentments, a lot of messy relationships. And the process allowed me to break it all down and really see, and black and white cause and effect and ultimately what role did I play in all of it.
And it was so interesting. I’m curious about your, that your first experience in the sort of self, self-reflection. Um, I, I saw. Repeated patterns of how I was taking inappropriate responsibility for others in like sort of the form of like being controlling and inappropriate respon, or not enough response, personal responsibility for myself, meaning I was blaming other people.
I felt like I sort of had like this victim [00:12:00] mentality, not sort of, I very clearly had a victim mentality. It’s funny, embarrassing. Um, and, and just seeing, just writing it all out in this process allow it kind of like burst my de lulu bubble, like I was delusional.
Sort of popped the bubble and I was like, oh shit. Like in these situations where I was feeling like a victim, when I saw it all out black and white, turns out I was the asshole in a lot of these situations. Like I was actually provoking people and they were responding to me and I was feeling like a victim.
I was not funny. Oh, that’s embarrassing. But it was so, but it was so helpful to know, ’cause then I was, and I had a sponsor who was like, oh yes, you did this, but here’s why. And she had so much compassion for me. She helped me to understand that I was responding from a [00:13:00] place of like, um, childhood neglect and abandonment and trauma.
And she’s like, you’re, you’re acting this way for a reason. Like you’re not broken. It’s like this is a normal response to a stressful situation that you had to develop survival skills. Yeah. So what, what was that process like for you? Well, I think the first thing that I wanna say about it is that, and maybe I asked you the question as well, it’s a very scary.
Prospect for some people that like, did you, did you think, oh my God, I don’t wanna do this? Or did you think I can’t wait to do this? No, I was terrified. And, and that was a, but here’s the deal. I was going to meetings and I was hearing that people were doing steps one, two, and three and relapsing. Like, that’s what stuck in my mind and I was like, oh my God, I don’t wanna relapse ever again.
Like, it was so painful for me. I was like, I [00:14:00] don’t wanna ever drink again. So, as scared as I was of the four step process, I was willing to do it because the pain of not doing it felt greater to me. And what I didn’t realize. Until after was step four is licensed to bitch. Like, you get to talk about all the people who did you wrong.
You get to talk about all the ways they hurt you, and you have a captive audience. Your sponsor has to listen to all your bullshit, you know? And so, uh, but, but to answer your question, yes, I was terrified and I didn’t wanna relive these painful moments, but I was more afraid of relapsing, so I did it. Yeah.
Well, with the caveat that they will then point out to you that you are the protagonist of all these resentments. Well, I, I was super lucky that I had somebody. Kindly point out to me like, oh, like I, [00:15:00] let’s, let’s say, I always use this example of I was resentful at my then boyfriend, who’s now my husband of 30 years, but when we were dating, he would do something to upset me.
It was his fault, obviously. And um, and I would bet every I would react, so cause and effect, and she would help me to see things from his perspective. She’s like, well, what would you do in this situation where someone was trying to control you? How would you respond if somebody was telling you you couldn’t spend your money the way you wanted to?
Or you couldn’t do this or that without them getting upset? How would you respond to that? And I was like, Ooh, yeah, not well. And so that’s kind of how I came to the conclusion that I was the asshole. Well, I mean, I, um, so I was one of the, I was one of the people that you get every now and then that really looks forward to doing it.
You weirdo, did you really? I am a weirdo, yes. Why does [00:16:00] that not surprise me? Yeah. And I don’t know, I, and I, I don’t know what differentiates one from the other, why some people are, don’t, you know, like are happy to do it and other people are just terrified by it. But, um, how, let me, let me just ask you a quick question.
How was the exercise presented to you? So I did it exactly out of the big book, exactly how it got the big book. But my sponsor said to me that, you know, I want you to, um, I don’t want you to write a list of names and then a, a list of resemblance. I want you to write the name, the resentment. Yeah. Part way across in, and then the check all the way across.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the reason why I did that in hindsight is because. He didn’t want me to get into that victim mindset and that resentful mindset of like, oh, these bastards, blah, blah, blah. It was like, oh, hang on a minute. This is my fault. Well, not my fault, but you know, like I’ve got a part responsibility.
Yeah. And this is what needs to be changed. And obviously by the time you’ve done 10 of these, [00:17:00] you’re like, oh God, you know, this is gonna, this is, this is the same, there’s the same patterns going on here over and over again. And that was my experience. So basically like I, very quickly I came to realize, uh, after writing it for, um, you know, a few days that, um, there, you know, obviously that I had had a part to play in all these resentments and that, um, and that a lot of change was needed.
And in some instances I couldn’t really understand what it was that I needed to change. Like, that was where I needed the guidance. Yeah. So when I sat down with my sponsor and went through the step five, um, he was a, you know, he was able to kind of like direct me there and point that out. And, um, I just found it an, an immensely, um, unburdening experience.
Yeah. Because I couldn’t really remember, like I did it in a hotel. Um, and one of these kind of like gentleman’s clubs kind of thing. And I remember going into the bus, a gentleman’s club, we call those strip clubs here. Yeah. I’ve [00:18:00] used the wrong term though. It’s like, uh. What do you call it? Like, uh, I could just see you sitting in a strip club doing your force snorting cocaine whilst I’m doing it, watching about naked women throw a Okay.
So not that like, like this step four’s not working. Um, you know, like a kind of like a, a bit of a rich, a rich person’s club where they go and, um, you know, like, well you call it like a country club in America. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So you’re bougie. You went to a country club? Yeah, because the guy that, the guy that sponsored me was like, um, was like a, an entrepreneur, like businessman and ah, he had, he had, um.
A membership to this, this country club thing in uh, okay. In, uh, like a, you know, a bougie part of London. Mm-hmm. So we went and did it there, and I was like, this is, well, you know, I was like, this is well cool. And, uh, and I, and I, so I did my step five with him, and then I, I remember distinctly going into the [00:19:00] bathroom and it was, and I looked at, you know, I washed my hands and, and looked at myself in the mirror.
And it was the first time for as long as I could remember, years and years and years where I looked myself in the eye and I was like, you are okay. Aw, you’re, you’re actually okay. Like, you’re not a bastard, you’re not a, you know, you’re not an asshole. You’re, you’re actually okay. And there’s still a lot of.
Work to be done, but it was just like a, a, you know, they dropped the rock, as they say in the book. Yeah, I dropped the rock. And, um, so it was a huge li huge experience for me. That, and then obviously from that point onwards, it’s about kind of like, you know, trying to rebuild your character really, and not fall back into those patterns.
Okay. So that sort of brings something to mind that has really been top of mind for me. Um, I’m working with some new people now, clients and, um, identity shaping. You know, I [00:20:00] think it’s so important when you’re first getting sober to use language that’s empowering in the sense of, um, I’m not trying to get sober.
I am sober. Like if you didn’t drink today, if you’re listening to this and you didn’t drink today, you’re a sober person. You’re not trying to get sober. You are sober. Right. Healing is like the recovery piece, but it’s part of your identity. And James Clear, the author of Atomic Habits, talks about any, every time you do an action that is in alignment with an identity, that’s you’re casting a vote in your own mind, that you are that kind of person.
So every day that you’re sober is a, you know, it’s a tick on the side of I am a sober person. Right. So I love that. And, you know, and I had to let go of this identity of a party girl. Like, I thought I was this fun, wild, and crazy party girl. Um, and I ha when I stopped drinking, I was like, okay, the fun is over.
I’m [00:21:00] never gonna have fun again. Um, but that was, obviously that wasn’t true, but it was very difficult for me to like, who am I now? So I would highly encourage people listening to just sort of do a little journal exercise of who would you like to be, who do you admire? There’s this idea of if you spot it, you got it right.
People are just mirrors or reflecting back to you things that you love or you hate about yourself. And. We sort of tend to focus on like what is the problems and don’t do that anymore. But I think it’s em more empowering to think of who are the people in your life that you admire and what are the character assets that you admire about them?
And this is separate from achievements and. Physical attributes or your roles. ’cause like I could say I’m a mom, I’m five foot three, I’m 57, um, whatever. [00:22:00] Uh, but those are not who I am. So attributes would be like persistent, curious, determined, reliable, loyal, um, funny, creative. You know what I’m saying? It’s like the, those are character assets that make me feel good about who I am, right?
And what are the activities that I do that cast a vote, that I am that person. So I think that early recovery is a perfect time for people to be like, well, what are my, what are my assets? Like in 12 step we think about like, what are your defects? Like where, where are your shortcomings? Like, and I think it’s fair, I don’t know how you feel, how you felt about this in the beginning, but.
I hear a lot of people, I’m sure you do too, where people talk, they kind of rail against this idea of character defects. Like they’re offended or they feel it’s like discouraging. Like it could be kind of discouraging. I, I, I’ll give, I’ll give [00:23:00] people that, but it’s kind of important to be realistic about like, let’s be real.
Like what are the problems and let’s fix those. Let’s change our behavior, but also give equal time to who do you wanna be? Yeah. I mean, the first word that jumped into my mind when you said about character identity is masks. So, Ooh, like, ooh, good one. The first thing I had to do was drop all my masks. And I, and I still have masks to this day.
Like, I’m very aware of them and when I feel like I’ve put a mask on, I, you know, can kind of quickly slip out of it. But every now and then. A mask does go on. Um, but all, all I had was masks in the first place. Yeah. So this is what you are talking about now, I think, is that that is really, uh, you know, really at the heart of recovery.
Yeah. Which is becoming yourself, like becoming the person that you actually really [00:24:00] are. Yeah. Um, and it’s been a lot, you know, like you’ve been sober a lot longer than I have and I’ve been sober. How long have you been sober now? 15 years. Okay. And those 15 years have been a gradual progression of dropping the masks and you know, like two just start in 2026 and I feel more.
John Loxley than I’ve ever felt in my life. But I still, I know that in the, at the end of this year, and in five years time, I’ll be even more John Loxley. Like, there’ll be less of those masks because that’s just been the traje trajectory. Mm-hmm. Um, and the masks get put on mainly, I mean, fear, like, ultimately, like if you want to get real kind of meta about this, I would say that there’s actually only two base emotions of a human being, and one of them’s fear and the other one’s love.
Yeah. And, and all the negative emotions and the character defects arise from fear and all the pos [00:25:00] positives arise from love. So it’s kind of like in the moment, you know, in day to day choosing like, which one, which 1:00 AM I working from? You know, am I working from a place of fear or am I working from a place of love?
And when I’m working from a place of love and I’m, you know, putting other people first and being kind and being compassionate and loving towards. Everybody as, as best as I possibly can. Um, I don’t need to wear any masks. There’s no, there’s no need for it. But when I’m coming from a place of fear, um, that’s when the masks come on.
So, as a working example, like I do Jiujitsu now, and I’ve done that for, um, about, I think it’s about five years now. And, um, you know, I can be in situations sometimes, whether it’s at a competition or whether it’s like just in training at the club where, um, you know, we might be having a, a conversation where it’s a bit kind of blokey blokey and it’s a bit kind of, you know, a bit ego and there’s a bit of like, you know, we’re [00:26:00] just shooting the shit, but maybe there’s like a little bit of ego in there or something.
And, and I, and I can film, I can, I’ve put on this mask all of a sudden and I might be, you know, behaving a little bit cocky or something like that. Usually I’ll catch myself and I’ll be like, and I’ll just kind of, you know, kind of pause the behavior. But then other times I’ll think afterwards when I’m driving or I’m in the car, I’ll think, uh, acting like a bit of a dick then, you know, it’s funny how quickly we just slip into those roles though.
Yeah, but it’s ’cause it’s a defense mechanism, isn’t it? It’s because if I feel like, like, you know, and it comes back to all the childhood trauma stuff, doesn’t it? It’s like, yeah, if, if little 5-year-old John feels a little bit threatened by some huge 21-year-old guy that’s, you know, that’s like being a bit, you know, I don’t know, a bit aggressive towards me or whatever the case may be, then I’ll just slip into that character and the character is like, I, [00:27:00] my character is essentially like, I’m harder than you.
Like, that’s the character. It’s like, fuck off away from me because I’ll do you some damage kind of thing, you know? Yeah. And that character was when I had a drink. That was the, that was the person that I became, you know, my, my ex-wife who was with me through, you know, all my drinking. And then at the beginning of my sobriety, she always used to say, you know, you, you’re the Jackline Hyde character.
Yeah. You, you’re a nice guy when you’ve not had a drink. But then as soon as you put a drink inside you, you’re like a monster. And it was, it was a horrible thing to hear. But now in, you know, 15 years into sobriety, I absolutely know what she was talking about. And, and I can still be that monster in sobriety if I’m not in a good place.
And some, you know, and I’ve had a, a, a big argument with somebody recently because, you know, I felt like they were kind of, you know, threatening my daughter in a, in a, in a bit, a bit of a mean way. And, [00:28:00] um, I, I turned into that monster momentarily. Yeah. You know, and that, that’s a, and that’s a mask that Right.
I just quickly put it on. I’ll be that person and then I take it off again. Yeah, I have, I have a Mama Bear mask. Don’t be, don’t be messing with my babies. My wife does. Someone’s gonna get hurt. Someone’s gonna, I will cut a bitch. Yeah, and that’s, and that’s fine. You know, and also. It is Okay. You know, like, it’s okay for that.
Like, again, we’re talking about the fundamentals here, we’re talking, you know, maybe like, you know, talking to people that are new to sobriety. Right. Um, it’s just about being aware that, that you do wear masks and it’s about being aware that there’s this, there’s this forever journey where Yeah. To practice, you know, you’re gonna grow, you’re gonna grow into, um, like the human being that you want to be.
And that’s kind of like. I’m, I’ll never be the finished article, but I’m definitely like, you know, I’m 15 years away from the person that I didn’t [00:29:00] want to be. Right. And that’s, that’s the most important thing, you know? Yeah. We’re, listen, we’re always gonna continue to evolve. There is no finish line and all the tools and practices that we will talk about, you know, are, are just, are just that, they’re just practices.
Right? Like we are, we’re working from something called the default mode network. It’s the way your brain is wired. And these practices allow us to be, to allow our true selves to emerge. I often think of this idea of emerging, like who we are will emerge. Um, when we do the self-care practices, right?
Journaling, praying, or connecting with nature, however you think of your higher power, like connecting with source, um, feeding your brain, good things, listening, like these are all practices. And when we stop doing practices, then we go back to our default setting and everybody gets it. Like you do juujitsu, right?
[00:30:00] So you’re a fitness guy, you do it for five years. If you stop doing juujitsu in another five years, you’ll sort of fall back to factory settings. Like I’m sure you know, you, you have a lot of the, but it’s like with exercise too. You could exercise every day for a year, but if you stop exercising, your body goes back to factory settings.
Yeah. So sobriety is really a lifestyle and there are ways to enjoy this lifestyle. It’s not all like doom and gloom, but you know, you gotta take responsibility and start changing your behavior and. There’s definitely some, some things to consider. So we’ve covered listening, self-reflection. Um, I just wanna say on that point as well, the most important thing for me personally is meditation.
Because ah, when you talk about that emergence, I think the two things that meditation gives me is one is ego deflation, so, okay. And I think that the emergence doesn’t happen without the ego deflation. So, and, and can I clarify, uh, ego deflation is really the, [00:31:00] is a, is a, is a reducing the volume on the fear.
Yeah, yeah. Basically it’s just because I, I would characterize the ego as that voice in your head. Really? Yeah. That’s, that’s what I think the ego is. I think that it’s the voice that tells you to do the things that, um, aren’t the best for you or for the people around you. Whereas the inner voice as in like the, you know, like, you know, that guidance system that we all have, right?
Which I would say is your soul, you know, the voice of God, whatever you wanna call it. Mm-hmm. That is you, that’s like, it’s the spirit and the ego is the how I see it in my mind. Okay. And the emergence is the emergence of the spirit. Got it. I, I, um, I have a committee, so it’s not just one voice. It’s like many, many voices.
Yeah. And, uh, I appreciate that. Yeah. And, uh, I was introduced to Internal Family Systems a couple years ago that, and that really completely shifted how I, um, how I interact with [00:32:00] the voices. Um, I think of them as parts that are actually trying to help me. And when I can meet these voices, like with a grateful heart, like, oh, the, you know, you’re trying to help me, um, maybe you’re going about it in a different, in a bad way or not a good way, or whatever.
However you wanna classify it. But the intention is to help me, like even addiction was explained as, you know, um, a firefighter part that comes in. It’s like, there is an emotion that I don’t know how to deal with. It’s like the intensity of the emotion is super painful. I feel like it’s gonna last forever.
So I reach for something, right? And, and nowadays, like it could be ice cream or Netflix, but, or my phone doom scrolling. Um, but it’s, it’s basically all the same thing. It’s a distraction from, and addiction is crazy because a firefighter, if you think the role of a firefighter, a firefighter, your houses on fire, right?
Like that’s the equivalent of emotional turmoil. Firefighter comes and pours water on your house, they put out the fire, but they’ve ruined the [00:33:00] house, right? So, you know, that’s kind of what they, how they think of addiction. And so, um, it’s so interesting thinking of the ego as a part that is. Trying to help me ultimately, like even in a scenario that you describe where somebody was like being threatening towards your daughter, you step into, you know, you called it ego, but a role or a mask.
And the intention is to protect your daughter, which is a really sweet, appropriate intention. You know, maybe the way it goes about it isn’t the right, like maybe you didn’t feel good about it, how you went about it, but the intention, so to relate to our part, it’s like, oh, I, I hear you. I see you. Thank you.
I got it. I got it from here. Yeah. You know, getting, getting your purse to settle down so we can act from our higher self or in alignment and co-create with God, that kind of thing. Um, I just wanted to mention a, a quick tool that I put [00:34:00] on my phone. Um, it’s called Mind Jogger and it will remind me throughout the day.
It just says, love or fear with a question mark, love or fear. And so it like pops like it just popped up on my phone and I was like, am I coming from a place? Do I, am I coming from love or fear? I love that, that great. I need to get that on my phone. That’s cool. Yeah, it’s super cool. Yeah. ’cause it, um, helps to, helps me to check in with my body, with my heart.
Like am I in fear right now? And sometimes I can’t tell. Sometimes I’m really close to the line. Other people talk about being above the line or below the line. And sometimes I’m so close to the line, I can’t really tell. Yeah. But anyway, at least I’m checking in and, and, and really ultimately the question is what do I need right now?
This is what I find a bit frustrating about life in general, and especially about this topic of addiction and recovery, because you and I speak the same [00:35:00] language, but we do, we term things slightly differently sometimes, but like what you’ve just said there, like the love and fear thing. So I’ve, I’ve made this, you know, statement about love and fear.
Yeah. And you have it on your hands, don’t you? Say again? Oh, yeah, yeah. You have it tattooed on your hands. Love and fear. So I’ve made this statement about love and fear, and I actually believe that that’s a fundamental truth. Yeah, I do too. And I, and then you’ve said, oh no, there’s this app right now. My point is that everybody should know this.
Everybody from an early age, from a young age should be taught this, whether it’s at school or, well, primarily in school. They should be taught that all negative emotions come from fear. And all positive emotions come from love. And it’s a choice. And that’s how, if you live your life in that way and you understand that if it’s going negatively, it’s because fear’s taken over.
And if it’s going well, it’s because you’re coming from a place of love. Then how, what an amazing life you’d have, like from a, from a young age, you, [00:36:00] if you understood this. And also you say, like you, you talked about, um, you know, addiction is, is about, um, distraction. Avoidance and distraction. Yeah.
Avoidance. Yeah. Well, that’s no different really to what I’m saying because we’re we’re both saying the same thing. We’re saying. Yeah. Well you are saying like, this is about, um, distracting from my emotions, whereas I’m saying I’m trying to medicate my emotions. For sure. Same thing. Yeah, it’s the same thing.
Yeah. So again, why is it, why aren’t we taught this from a young age? Like, you know, that, that this is what, this is what we’re all trying to do as human beings. Like we’re all trying to avoid our emotions. We’re all trying to distract from our emotions. We’re all trying to medicate our emotions, whatever, however you want to term it.
Yeah. Um, and unfortunately, if you continue down that path with alcohol, drugs, gambling, sex, whatever the, you know, the behavior may be Yeah. You may get addicted to it. Yeah. You know, like what a simple way to explain to people what addiction is. [00:37:00] Yet instead, what we have is we have this very frustrating system both in the US and the uk where nobody’s told that.
Are you, do you, do you teach this to your daughter? Say again? Do you teach this to your daughter? She’s six. She might be kind of young, but Yeah. Rough. Like not quite as, not quite as, um, I mean, she, she, you, you talk to her about love and fear. Yeah. I mean, I talk to her about, I do talk to her about that, but I don’t think she really fully understands that part of it.
But I talked to her about kindness. So a perfect example is I took the girls, her and her friend’s trampolining yesterday and they were both really well behaved because they were sharing really nicely. But there was a point where Alice, my daughter, wasn’t sharing, and, you know. Tiny, a little bit mean in the sense of like, she wanted to keep what, you know, her Oreos or whatever it was that she had.
And then the other girl said, um, oh, it’s okay. I’ll [00:38:00] share with you, you know, I’ll share that with you. And I said, do you see the difference there? Like there’s, there’s, you have a choice whether you be kind. Yeah. Which is she’s been loving and nice. Mm-hmm. Or whether you are, uh, whether you are, um, being a little bit mean and not being very nice.
And she said, yeah, I understand. So those are the kind of things I’m trying to teach at the moment. And then as she gets to get older, I will fully explain to her that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Negative stuff comes from fear. Yeah. I feel like we need to, you know, kind of reach people where they’re at. And the little ones, you kinda have to break it down to.
Practical, they’re very concrete learning at that age. But, um, the reason I asked is because it’s so, it’s tempting to get frustrated by the world, but we’re taught in rooms of recovery to focus on what we can control. And you know, I, I did the same thing with my kids. They’re grown now. My son just turned, my youngest just turned 22 yesterday and my oldest is 25.
He’ll be 26 this year. And [00:39:00] yeah, there’s a lot we can’t control and they, in, in the world will offer a lot of negative contrast. And you know, it does make me crazy. You know, we were talking about like, um, before we hit record, we were talking about like poly crisis. Like there’s, the world is a dumpster fire.
And, and uh, what brings me peace is kind of coming back to the, that idea that I can only control what’s in my hula hoop. You know? Do you guys have hula hoops there? Yeah. You know what I’m talking about. Okay, sorry. Yeah, just wanted to make sure. But it’s like, it comes back to what can I control and sorta try to make peace with everything else.
’cause I, I can get really crazy and frustrated about, you know, why aren’t we, I think some people are, I think for the most people, most part it’s not being taught. No. But we, I gotta focus on what we can control. Let’s, let’s transition a little bit, um, to, um, some of the things [00:40:00] that mistakes people make, um, in recovery and what to do about it.
And one of the mistakes that I see, and I wonder if you, I’m sure you see this too, is not making sobriety your number one priority. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that’s the probably the biggest mistake that everybody makes. Really? Yeah. And you know, it doesn’t matter how long you’ve been sober or clean. I’ve done that myself numerous times in my recovery where yeah.
I’ve taken my eye off the ball. It’s not been the number one focus. And you hear all these, you know, the, these sayings like, um, if you put your recovery first, everything else will be first class. Ooh, I like that. Yeah. If you don’t put your recovery first, you’ll, anything that you put be before your recovery, you’ll lose it.
Like those kind of things. Yeah. And it sounds, you know, it sounds a bit kind of scam hungry, but that’s my experience, to be honest. I mean, everybody, anybody that I’ve ever seen relapse is because they’ve stopped doing the, you know, stopped making the recovery, the focus. Anytime I’ve ever slipped back [00:41:00] into, um, you know, fear and negative thinking and like basically depression, bad mental health has always been because.
Things have been going really well and then I’ve kind of gone, oh, I don’t need to do this now. Or Yeah. You stopped doing your practices. Yeah. And it doesn’t need to be a focus anymore. And then not, and then I wonder why two weeks later I wanna kill everybody. I, myself, you get a little murdery. Yeah. And I went on holiday to Turkey, um, last year and I was feeling the best I’d felt in years and years and years.
And I went to this beautiful place in Turkey and, you know, gorgeous weather, lovely hotel. Um, I remember seeing the pictures. I was so jealous. Yeah. Start out with my family and everything. And then, you know what the pictures didn’t show is that six days into that holiday I was as mad as a box of frogs and, you know, I was like so mentally unwell.
[00:42:00] Yeah. Like by the end of the holiday, a two week holiday, I was. Just sick in the head, like full of resentment, anxious, depressed, just rageful. Um, and it was because I’d just left my program at home. I wasn’t meditating, I wasn’t praying, I wasn’t taking inventory. I hadn’t spoken to anybody in recovery for the full two weeks, you know?
And once you get past a certain point where your mental health is gone, you know, I had my phone in my hand every day, sat on the beach thinking, I need to ring my sponsor. I need to ring my sponsor. And then I’d be like, nah, you know, he doesn’t want to talk. And, and it was like I was talking myself out of it.
And it was just the worst exper one of the worst experience. Well, it was the worst experience that I’ve had in 15 years of recovery. Wow. Um, and I was very lucky. I mean, I was, I was in a, an all-inclusive hotel, so I was very lucky that that didn’t devolve to the point where I pressed the fuck it button and picked up a drink, you know?[00:43:00]
Yeah. So, you know, I got back to the uk, run back to the, my 12 step meetings, confessed my sins, and, uh, oops. I did it again. Yeah. Oops. I did it again, and then got back on the program and then within, it took me a good couple of weeks to get back to feeling okay, though listen, a couple weeks. Uh, although I’m sure the intensity of the pain was not great, you know, in, you know, in hindsight, a couple weeks is not, not really a bad turnaround.
And I’m sure it was sort of a, um, a slow progress to, okay. So the intensity was probably a slow Yeah, yeah, a slow decline. So even just, you know, connecting with others and being like, Hey, check it out. I got crazy. My emotions took over for me. It was scary though. It was scary. It was scary. Like, it scary how, how?
I felt, you know? Yeah, yeah. That is, yeah, and I think that’s you, you know, in all compassion and fairness to you, it’s like [00:44:00] sometimes the pain is. It’s like so subtle. It’s like little degrees, like I tick in little degrees and it’s so subtle. I don’t notice that I am veering off course. Yeah. And I don’t notice until I’m totally lost or I, I am in, suddenly I’m in overwhelmed by pain, emotional pain, and I’m like, how did I get here?
Right. And I reflect back and I go, oh, well it was, I quit doing my practices, so I went back to factory setting. Yeah, yeah. And it just happens. Fact, fact cuckoo. Yeah. I mean, I grew up with like a lot of emotional trauma, like some shit happened and so my brain is my brain. It just didn’t acknowledge my brain is wired in a certain way.
So I do these practices so that I can kind of stay on the path, but it can happen so subtly. So it’s, I was gonna talk about triggers and I think that, um, one of the triggers [00:45:00] is not noticing when you’re veering off course and you have a, an emotional experience that let’s say a trigger to, in my mind, a trigger is, um.
Something that happens that reminds me of the past. So whenever I have a response that’s disproportionate to the situation, it’s about the past. It has nothing to do with what’s going on, like what’s going on in the current moment. You know, there’s like a whiff of like, one of my triggers was a condescension.
I had a parent that was very condescending. And when you use their, and like I’m a little kid and they’re using their intellect to make me feel small and control me to make themselves feel better. So if I interact with somebody and they’re condescending to me, I go rare. Like I’m on my, I start, uh, getting really defensive and start behaving in ways that I don’t feel good about.
And, um, so what what’s interesting is I have found that there is a treasure under every trigger. Like the people that I don’t [00:46:00] like who trigger me, those are my biggest teachers, which I hate to admit. My ego doesn’t like that, but it’s true because. Um, if, if stuff comes up, it’s like detox, it has to come up.
So it comes out. So like in the case where I had, I was working with somebody who was very condescending and I would feel triggered, it really did force me to go back to ask the questions where, what’s really going on? Where did this feel like this is disproportionate to what’s happening? Like, why am I acting like this?
And it makes me kind of go back to the past and process feelings to resolution that I had buried or disassociated from. Yeah. And once I do that, and I’ve done things like EMDR, the eye movement, uh, desensitization, reprocessing, um, therapies, uh, were really helpful. Um, so that when that situation happened again, I didn’t react.
As strongly, and I [00:47:00] had other tools to help. You know, what happens is my fear gets triggered, and when fear gets triggered in the brain, your amygdala gets activated. And when your amygdala is activated, you’re in fight or flight, and it actually takes your prefrontal cortex offline. That’s your rational decision making process.
You’re the, it, it literally goes offline. You cannot access like, rational choices, right? So knowing all this, you know, it’s like, okay, well I don’t want to be triggered in that way so I can process the stuff to resolution. And so that’s why there’s like a treasure under every trigger. ’cause once I know what the trigger is, then I can sort of repair it and heal it.
Yeah, I love that. I mean, I, I have a similar thing where I call those people that trigger me. Like that the, my black mirror, my black mirrors. Ooh, yeah. Um, ’cause like you said that earlier on, didn’t you? You said that anybody that’s um. People are mirrors, they reflect, people mirrors you love or [00:48:00] hate about yourself.
And they are definitely like you. And I had, I’ve had that experience many times where I’ve, you know, I’ve gone to my sponsor and I’ve said, uh, you know, this person pisses me off because of X, Y, Z. And then he’ll be like, um, do you do that? What a dick. And I’m like, no, I would never, how dare you? And um, and it always is, it’s always like that person is, is holding the mirror up to me.
And I either do that behavior or have done that behavior have done. And it’s about showing me what that behavior looks like if when you are, you know, a fly on the wall and, and it’s, it’s painful. It’s like really, really painful. Um, yeah. And the triggers like, I mean. Again, this is probably just again, you know, in five years time, I’ll, I’ll probably say to you like, oh yeah, I’m so much better at this now.
But it is something that, um, I am really working on and, [00:49:00] and especially because of, um, you know, having a, a six year, nearly 6-year-old daughter, uh, who triggers me all the time, you know, so I’m having to like really work on not reacting angrily for a start, because obviously that’s not conducive to a good relationship with your daughter.
And then I have a very similar situation with my wife where, you know, we can really push each other’s buttons and we’re really working hard on, on communication. I mean, if I, I mean, she wouldn’t. Mind me saying this, you know, like the last two or three years we’ve been very close to divorce on numerous occasions.
Mm-hmm. And it isn’t the, isn’t that we don’t love each other, it’s just that our communication strategies and um, you know, and the ways in which we communicate have been horrendous. And it’s all learned behavior and programming. But actually as a bit of a saving grace, really living with my in-laws and obviously seeing where a lot of her patterns come from, and a lot of her programming comes [00:50:00] from, has actually really helped us both because I can see the patterns now and I understand where they come from.
And she’s had realizations around why she behaves the way that she behaves. And she hasn’t lived with her dad since she was 21 and she’s 45 now, so, well, no, earlier, like 20. So, you know, it’s been over 20 years since she’s lived with a parent. Yeah. And now she can see, oh, okay, this is where this comes from and stuff.
And, um. Yeah. And she’s really triggered by a lot of his behaviors as I’m really triggered by a lot of my parents’ behavior. Sure. Fair. Especially the people closest. Like I just find that, that I’m not really that triggered by people that I don’t know. Right. You know, like, but people that, I’m really funny how that works.
Yeah. People that I’m really close to are the ones that really trigger me and what, and the bit I’m working on is noticing that I’ve been triggered and noticing why that has actually triggered me. Like, yeah, what, what’s actually going on here? Like [00:51:00] you said, why has that actually triggered me? And you know, 99.9% of the time it is because you can trace it back to something that happened when you were young and you’ve just not come to terms with it or not dealt with it.
You know, it’s so interesting. I was telling you, uh, before that I’m sort of obsessed with Dr. Judson Brewer’s work. Um, I had him on, he was talking about unwinding anxiety and he was talking about the trigger response outcome. He calls it a habit loop. And this has really kind of blown my mind because once you sort of recognize what your habit loops are like he says the why doesn’t matter.
I, I kind of think it does. I think it’s helpful, but like, we don’t live there. It’s like, what really is important is whatcha gonna do instead. Right? And, and so he says to ask a couple questions, like to, he says curiosity is like a superpower. It’s like, um, uh, what am I getting out of this? Like, how is this benefiting [00:52:00] me?
How is my, there’s the trigger, but our response, it’s like. That is what we have control over. In theory, sometimes our response happens so fast it’s hard to catch it before. It’s like sometimes worth, like, I think that’s why they call this a trap. Yeah. The the, the reaction. So the reaction to Yeah, the reaction, yeah.
To the, so we choose a reaction and then there is an outcome. And so in relationships, in, at work, at home, you know, a, a lot of this. Or, you know, anxiety, like I wake up with anxiety and my brain’s like, oh, let’s worry. Like that’s a, that’s a habit loop. My brain thinks that worrying is helpful or productive.
Like, I like to seek information. I, I consume a lot of self-help stuff. But, um, really what would be more helpful to break that habit loop is to, uh, have the felt experience. Um, he talked about the rain methodology as recognize, allow, investigate, and note. And that is actually a process of actually feeling my [00:53:00] feelings.
You know, like, what is it that I’m trying to avoid and kind of lean into it as opposed to distract from it. That’s the polar opposite of what my instinct is. Like, my instinct is to try to get away from the uncomfortable feeling. Yeah. So this idea of, yeah. Changing the habit loop is, you know, I’m still work, kind of new to working with this idea, but I think that’s going to be my work this year is really focusing on what are the habit loops?
What am I getting out of it? What could I do instead? Those kinds of things. I mean, that’s probably gonna be my work as well. Well, we’ll have to do, we’ll have to do another check-in and see how it’s going for both of us. I figured we’d probably need to have these conversations a little more often. Yeah.
Um, we’re kind of running outta time. Um, I am, we didn’t get through all of the mistakes. I’ll just run them through them really quick and, um, you can add some, if I’m missing anything. Um, sobriety not being the number one priority. Too many changes all at [00:54:00] once. I think it’s good to like, start with something small and like build on habits.
It’s too, it’s so easy. People wouldn’t eat first, get sober. I’m gonna start working out, I’m gonna eat right, I’m gonna change all my friends. It’s like too many changes all at once can be overwhelming to the system. Um, avoiding slippery situations like people or, you know, saying yes and you really mean no.
Um, we talked about going it alone and that kind of leads into lack of accountability. So there, there is a PDF on the website that you can download. Um, for free that sort of talks about sort of the nuances of these things. Would you, would you add anything else to this list? I mean, the, no, I wouldn’t add anything, I don’t think, but the lack of accountability thing I think is like really massively important.
Um, and, and the best way to have that accountability in, in my experience is to have somebody that you can talk to, you know, like we’ve already said about, you know, don’t go it alone, but, you know, try and find at least [00:55:00] one person that you can confide in, you know, and that you can be absolutely 100% truthful with as well.
’cause yeah, you know, your secrets will keep you sick at the end of the day. Oh, I love that. Yeah. That’s a good reminder. Um, yeah, and I wouldn’t recommend telling, like, uh, trauma dumping on somebody. Like, it’s, it’s better that you just test people out with a tiny little bit of information first, see how they do with it.
You know what I mean? Yeah. So like e ease into that. Don’t just assume that you can go to a meeting and tell everything to the first person. You see it as support group meeting. Like that’s probably a really bad idea. Yeah, yeah. Withhold. Yeah. E ease ’em, test people out with small things. Um, a good indicator of somebody is trustworthy is you never hear them talking about other people.
No. Yeah. That’s very true. Yeah. And that’s one of the things that I’ve had to work on a lot is like, gossiping really, and just like, yeah. Yeah. Not talking about people. One [00:56:00] of the things I just wanted to mention as well about that whole kind of like, you know, the thing about not reacting to your emotions is, um, what I had a realization recently is that, um, when I had arguments in my family when I was a kid, it was always about winning the argument outright.
Yeah. So I’ve only just realized that when I have an argument with my wife, for example, I do wanna win the argument. Like it’s not about, it’s not about like. Let’s come to a peaceful resolution here and, and sort out this problem initially. It’s like, I wanna win the argument and then we’ll sort it out from there.
From there. Yeah. And obviously there is no winner in an argument. Like that’s the big kind of light bulb that I’ve had recently. It’s like, it’s no wonder that we don’t go straight to the peace talks and like ironing out the problem because I’m still in the trenches wanting to win the battle. Yeah. Um, and that’s been a huge realization.
So I catch myself now when I’m going into [00:57:00] that mode of, you know, kind of like attack and defense mode. Mm-hmm. Um, I’m like, hang on a minute, there’s no winner here. Like, you can’t win this. You can’t, if you win, she loses. And if she loses, she’s miserable. Yeah. You know, and if you lose, you are miserable. So it’s like just.
Come to the, you know, just get it sorted out quickly. Yeah. I think one of the, you know, I’ve been married for 30, 30 something. Well, anyway, Bobby and I had been together probably keep saying all these things like, you’re 57, you’ve been married for 30 years. Don’t look all any older than about 30. Yeah. I, you know, I haven’t drank for a long time.
You know, alcohol is, uh, hard on the face. Hard on the skin. Yeah. One of the things, um, and this is, uh, to be fair, uh, I got this from, from Bob. Was he, he would say things like, help me understand. And, and so I didn’t feel like he was, um, [00:58:00] he wasn’t saying help me understand, like he was looking for the flaw in my thinking.
He was try, uh, it was more like, help me understand how you feel about this. Mm-hmm. And I would tell him, and then he would say things like, this is what I’m hearing. Do I have it right? Is this how you feel? And I’d be like, yeah. And it seemed like once I felt like he understood me, there was nothing to fight about.
You know? It was really, it sounds like a, it sounds like a spiritual guru, this man. It kind of is. Yeah. He’s a simple man. He’s sober a long time, hasn’t he? He’s been sober. Yeah, he’s been sober like 37 or 38 years. We, we lost track. I think it got him. Anyway, doesn’t matter. He’s been practicing the principles for a long time.
But, um, he, you know, to be fair, he was like five or six years sober when I got sober. And he was the one that helped me to learn how to communicate. ’cause my communication style was break things. When you’re mad[00:59:00]
and he is bigger than me, he’d be like, Hey, you’re and I, and I’d leave, I’d wanna leave. And he’d be like, no, no, no, no. Sit down. Tell me how you feel. We’re gonna keep talking about this until we feel peaceful. And sometimes, and sometimes we’d be sitting there for a long time in silence and he’d be like, what are you thinking?
How are you feeling? And then we’d just sit there until. Uh, we were peaceful. That’s cool. I mean, that’s, I mean, that is like, it is recovery and counseling 1 0 1, isn’t it? Seriously, like talk about the way, talk about the ways that you feel basically. Yeah. I, I, I, uh, people are like, how did you guys have such a happy marriages for such a I Well, it is Bob.
Just, Bob, welcome. Done, Bob. Well done Bob. Yeah, his codependency really works well for me ’cause we both have the same objective, which is my happiness, so, yay.[01:00:00]
Yeah. Yeah. Li to be fair, it’s like the four step process. I had a sponsor who was calling me out on my bullshit, you know what I’m saying? So I had to eat a bunch of humble pie too. Bob just helped. Yeah.
Bless his heart. Hey, listen, this has been so much fun. Can we do this again very soon? Up close? Yeah, definitely. I would like to do another discussion. Uh, my brain is on fire with like, all, all my favorite teachers are talking about behavior change. So I’m doing a lot of James clear, a lot of unwinding anxiety, some tiny experiments.
Um, so I, I think it would be really fun to sort of like discuss it and uh, help people start thinking about, you know, sobriety is just the beginning, right? It’s like once you get sober it’s like, now what, what kind of a life do you wanna create? Who do you wanna be? It’s like all the possibilities are suddenly, um, available and within reach [01:01:00] for us.
And sometimes we just need a little practical, tactical, um, uh, support in terms of like, that’s why I love James clear’s work and the unwinding anxiety stuff. ’cause it’s helping to address both the emotional. But also the very practical, what actions can I take that will actually increase the chance of me getting the outcome I want?
So I think Sounds good. Well, I look forward to having another chat with you soon. Okay. It was so good to see you. Happy New Year and thanks for the chat. Thank you. Take care.
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