Sexuality is one of the most powerful — and least discussed — aspects of recovery. In over three decades of working with people in addiction treatment, Dr. Stephanie Covington noticed something alarming: sexual health was almost never addressed, even though clients consistently identified it as a major trigger for relapse.
In this episode, we unpack why silence around sexuality doesn’t protect people — it isolates them.
Why Sexuality Gets Ignored in Recovery
Dr. Covington explains that when a topic is never discussed, people assume they are the only ones struggling. That assumption breeds shame, and shame thrives in secrecy. This silence has existed for decades, even at institutional levels of addiction care.
Trauma, Childhood Messages, and Sexual Development
Many of us learned distorted lessons about sexuality early on — through abuse, fear-based reactions from caregivers, or confusing and incomplete information. These experiences shape how safe (or unsafe) intimacy feels later in life.
Healthy Sexuality Starts With the Self
Rather than prescribing what “healthy” sexuality looks like, Dr. Covington emphasizes something radical: you decide. Healthy sexuality is rooted in consent, trust, mutuality, and self-knowledge — not performance or people-pleasing.
From Friendship to Intimacy
For survivors of sexual trauma, rebuilding trust often starts with non-sexual connection. Learning what safety feels like in friendship creates the foundation for future intimacy.
The Bigger Message
This conversation isn’t just about sex. It’s about integration — bringing our inner world and outer life into alignment. It’s about reclaiming pleasure, joy, and connection as legitimate parts of recovery.
🔹 Action Steps for Listeners
- Redefine Healthy Sexuality
Journal on this question: What does healthy sexuality mean to me — not to my partner, culture, or recovery group? - Notice People-Pleasing Patterns
Where have you prioritized someone else’s comfort over your own boundaries? - Practice “I” Statements
When discussing sensitive topics, lead with vulnerability instead of accusation. - Build Safety Before Sexuality
Focus on trust, communication, and emotional safety before physical intimacy. - Challenge Shame With Truth
Remind yourself: Struggling does not mean something is wrong with me.
🔹 Resources Mentioned
Awaken Your Sexuality, by Dr. Stephanie Covington
A Woman’s Way Through The 12 Steps
Women-centered and inclusive recovery models
👊🏼Need help applying this information to your own life?
Here are 3 ways to get started:
🎁Free Guide: 30 Tips for Your First 30 Days – With a printable PDF checklist
Grab your copy here: https://www.soberlifeschool.com
☎️Private Coaching: Make Sobriety Stick
https://www.makesobrietystick.com
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Listen to the episode onApple Podcasts, Spotify, or Amazon Music, or you can stream it from my website HERE. You can also watch the interview on YouTube.
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Transcript
Well, Stephanie, thank you so much for joining me again. So glad to see you again. I’m glad to see you too. The last time I actually saw you was at the She Recovers conference. We got to have dinner together, right, right. Yeah, and that was such a special evening for me. It. One of those weird, like manifestation things where I was like, oh, I need some, I need some good guests for the podcasts and things.
And by happenstance I ended up getting sat at your table with, uh, Ann Do Johnson and Elizabeth Gilbert and Don Nichols, the founder of, she Recovered, I think you were receiving a, a, an award that night. I, I was getting the Legacy award that night. That’s why I was right. And our table was very powerful women, man.
I was like, I looked around and I was like, I’m at the IT girl [00:01:00] table,
man. I don’t know. I, I am just gonna live off that for a long time. And then I saw that Elizabeth Gilbert wrote the Forward Yes. Which was amazing. And she talked about meeting you at the event and I was like, at that event. Exactly. Here we are at that event. And sit sitting near her at the table having a conversation.
And it ended up, uh, that she wrote the forward and she also let us interview her for the book. And as you know, that night when she talked about love and sex addiction, it was very powerful. So powerful. I mean, she was, listen, she’s one of my favorite people on the planet. I’m subscribed to her. The only substack I subscribed to is her letters from Love.
I know, I know. Yeah. And she had me do one a couple weeks ago as a guest. And um, I did, I said yes, because she’d written the Forward and I like, I should do it. But as I got closer to doing it, I did not [00:02:00] wanna do it. And, but of course I did do it. And, um. It turns out it was an important letter for me to have written that I would’ve had no idea as to its value for me.
So isn’t that amazing? No. He’s things that we the universe provides even when we’re kicking and screaming. That is so funny. Yeah. Uh, what was your resistance to doing the letter? Was it just like being exposed or you didn’t think it felt really vulnerable? Yeah. You felt very vulnerable. And you know, as an author when you’re writing something, you write and you edit and you fix and you tweak and so forth.
And what they say to you is they want you to sit down and write it and not edit it. Oof. They just want you to do it. And so I’m thinking, well, you know, and then you have to read it into your phone and then the video, you know, is on and all this stuff. And, um. I just [00:03:00] felt vulnerable. Yeah. And, but, um, I’m really glad I did it.
That was, that was very brave. Um, I did, did she publish that already? Yes. Look, um, it’ll, if you subscribe, you get the letters that she does and the letters from her guests, and it’ll be around October the 11th or 12th. It’s about a month ago, so a few weeks. Okay. You’ll find, you’ll find it. Okay. Yes, I will.
Uh, I’m gonna go hunt for that. Now, I, I am usually pretty religious about, uh, sitting down with a cup of coffee to her morning. ’cause she, you know, she goes on video right? And says a little something, something. So that’s like my, uh, that’s like my, my church. That’s Sunday morning event, right? Yeah, I, on one of those Sunday mornings.
I cannot wait. I, I am, I am sad. I didn’t see it before this, otherwise I would’ve asked you about it, but I will definitely go check that out. Great. Um, and listen, I wanna congratulate you on writing this [00:04:00] book with your co-author, uh, Vanessa, Dr. Vanessa Carlisle. Um, I didn’t realize. Like how complex this topic is.
I’ll just give you the book. People listening to the book title, awaken Your Sexuality, A Guide to Connection and Intimacy After Addiction and Trauma. And when I started going, you’ll those of, uh, you who have. Those of you on the, uh, podcast who can’t see, I’m actually holding up her book and I have a bazillion tabs on the side.
I did not realize how complex this topic can be, and I didn’t even consider like how many types of people like that you included. Um, I just wanted to read a little something that Elizabeth Gilbert wrote in the very beginning. She says, the authors respectfully discuss monogamy. [00:05:00] Uh, Polly Amery. Divorce, sexual anorexia, sex work, hetero and queer sex, bisexuality, the essential experiences of people with disabilities, bigger bodies or aging bodies.
I just turned 57, so I was like very keyed into that. You’re young, you’re young. I’m young, I’m young. That’s what I keep telling myself. Um, but I just, I was like, wow. I did not realize. You know, I’m in my own little world. I’ve been with my husband since I was, you know, for 31 years. Right, right. So, and that’s, most of us live in our own little worlds.
And what happens? Well, there’s so many different things. One is often books around sexuality are pretty limited there, usually limited to heterosexual sex and very often, um, monogamy marriage. [00:06:00] Right. And. We decided that we needed a book that was inclusive and, um, we wanted, we wanted people to be able to find themselves because, you know, one of the things I’ve learned over the years in, in developing programs for people, for people to get benefit from something, they have to see themselves.
They have to have a sense that you get it or you understand. Yeah. And there’s a variety of ways. We can do that with people. So part of what we did is we included, um, some composite people Yes. That are, have varied life histories, so to help people see themselves. The other challenge is, and I don’t know if it comes across strongly enough in the book this topic, there is silence in the addiction treatment field.
That’s so crazy. [00:07:00] I started, I started looking at this issue decades ago with my dissertation and then wrote a book. Then I was 30 years old. We needed a new book. I put a chapter in a woman’s way through the 12 steps on sexuality, because when I interviewed the Women in Recovery, and I asked them. What are the things that change the most in your life from days of addiction to recovery, and where are the triggers to relapse?
They said self relationships, sexuality, and spirituality. So I knew this was important, and then I wrote this treatment program helping women recover. We have a module in sexuality, but you can go to treatment today and it’ll never be discussed. You can, yeah, you can go, you can go to a self-help group and never hear it talked about.
That’s true. Yeah. Right. And often people are struggling if no one’s talking about it, you think it’s [00:08:00] just you, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve, I’ve had over the years, you know, when I was doing clinical work, I would have clients who say. You know, I couldn’t bring this up with my therapist. I, I knew she’d be too embarrassed.
Oh, that’s so sad. Right. So it’s just, it’s, it’s a topic. That a lot of people struggle with, but nobody’s gonna talk about. So we decided we were gonna talk about it. Yeah, I mean, that was gonna be like, my first question is, you know, what gap did you see? And that, and it makes sense why you would wanna do this.
And you’re right, like I’ve spent the last 30 years, 31 years and um, 12 step meetings, and I predominantly go to women’s meetings. But you know, I attended mixed meetings too and nobody ever talked about it. And I would say in mixed meetings, that’s actually appropriate. I agree with you. Yeah. ’cause I didn’t wanna hear, [00:09:00] I didn’t wanna hear the boys in their, no.
Yeah. But I have seen women on occasion share something that they probably shouldn’t have because it brings out all the creeps. Right. And you know, there’s. You know, those of us that were like the elder statesmen, the, the, you know, sometimes you have to pull these girls aside and be like, don’t talk about that at meetings.
You know, save that, save that for the women’s meetings. But even at women’s meetings, you know, 12 step is, you know, topic discussion and that’s never one of the topics. It’s never one of the topics. It’s never one of the topics, never about. 20 years ago, samhsa, our federal agency that covers substance abuse, had a, um, a group of a hundred professionals come together and develop what they call the principles of recovery.
Mm-hmm. In a two day meeting, the word sex or sexuality was never mentioned. Sexual health was not mentioned. [00:10:00] Yeah. There’s just this. Yeah. And there silence. And you know when when people, when there’s silence around something, people feel shame. Yeah. They feel, oh, it must be me, or No one’s talking about this.
I guess it’s not an issue for anybody else. Right. And that just isn’t true. So we decided we will tackle it head on and good for you. Well, and for both, uh, people who have struggled with addiction, but also trauma uhhuh, ’cause so many people who’ve experienced, particularly women, have experienced sexual abuse and that impacts.
They’re developing sexuality and very often how they feel in their adult lives. Yeah. So we just, we just felt a need to talk about it. And even though I have done work on this over the decades, I also knew I needed a young co-author, really, because, you know, there’s so many things. [00:11:00] The world, while some things have stayed the same, the silence have stayed the same.
Sure. So many things have changed in the world. That, you know, like you said, you’ve been married for 31 years, all, you know, through dating apps and all kinds. Ugh. Right. Oh my gosh. So just things I not part of my life experience. So yeah, I wanted a co-author that was younger, but also had her own, uh, sexual history, different from mine so that, you know, we, we had a bigger.
Bigger trays, her chest. Is it fair to say she had sort of a polar opposite experience than you? I would say in some ways, yes. There’s some places where we overlap, but there places where we’re all so different. It’s so different. Yeah. She talked about sex work and Yeah. Yeah. And listen. Um, and I thought, I think that’s really [00:12:00] important because yeah, we know you and I know as recovering women.
That there are women who trade sex to get their drug of choice. They may not be on the street being paid for it, but you know they’re doing things because someone’s going to buy them a bottle of wine or give them a fix or. Whatever. Yeah. Sexist equation. Yeah. I mean, um, I got sober when I was 25, but there was a period of, there was a period of time uhhuh when, you know, you can use your sexuality to coerce people to buy you drinks.
Exactly, yeah. Buy dinner, all kinds of stuff. All right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, so there’s, you know. Sex work is a broad category. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there, there were things that I, that I was not proud of. I, but, you know, it was so interesting. I was thinking about my own sexual dysfunction when I, before I got sober, [00:13:00] and it was, I had felt, so I had some sexual trauma as a child, you know, I was molested by a neighbor.
And so it created a lot of confusing feelings for me around sexuality. And, you know, by the time I got sober I was like, I kind of had to make peace with it because it was either I was gonna be so ashamed about it that, um, I was just gonna completely shut down around it, or do you know what I mean? It was just so confusing.
Right. Exactly. Well. It’s, it’s confusing and again, it’s usually hidden. Yeah. Um, often when children have that experience, they try to tell their parents if they try to tell them, which some do not even, don’t try to tell them because they feel it’s something about themselves. Yeah. But often. They’ll have a parent that’s, I don’t think so.
You know, they’re not, so it’s just, it’s so complicated. Um, and, and it introduces children [00:14:00] to sexual activity at an inappropriate age. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just not age appropriate. It’s not age appropriate. Yeah. I had an experience where my mom saw it happen, Uhhuh, and uh, she freaked out. It was with another, um, child that was, that was older than me, but still another child.
And, you know, I don’t know how much of that was like curiosity or whatever. Turns out that the other child was also, was being abused by an adult. That’s awesome. And that’s how they found out about it. And then they were all, uh, but I was really young. I was like, five is when it started and it went on for a period of time.
But my mom saw it and she lost her ever loving mind. And so it created all this shame. So then it scared you also must have been really frightening. Yeah. Yeah. To have your mother. Yeah. Like I thought I kind of got this subconscious mess. I just thought she hated me, you know? Yeah, I, you know, looking [00:15:00] back, it’s hard, it’s hard to say looking back, but I can see that a lot of my low self-esteem issues came from that.
And then it, I was on this path of trying to win her approval my entire life. And that did not end, that has never ended. I’m still sort of see, you know, sort of in my DNA to seek approval, but it all started around this thing that I was incapable of understanding. Too young to understand. Too young to understand.
And actually, uh, we talk in your book, you do talk a a lot about, um, you give some really good examples in the book about like messages that you get in childhood. What I, uh, you have it under unresolved conflict and, oh, wait, no, no. Sorry, I’m on the wrong part. Sticky that, that we’re, yeah. We’re, I I have too many stickies.
Uh, we’re gonna get back to that one. But there was one, um, page one 11 challenges to healthy sexual development and [00:16:00] Childhood. And when I’ve read some of the examples, um. For instance, uh, my family gave me incomplete and confusing information about sexual development and what I could ex expect during sexual experiences.
But the one that really got me was, uh, I think it was, oh, um,
sorry, I’m probably gonna have to edit this a little bit, but it was like a grandma somehow saw something and she freaked out. It was almost my exact story. But it was, it still an authority figure. Exactly. Um, someone who cares about you, someone who loves you, and they totally freak out. Yeah. And often they freak out and have, and they’re so distressed, they have no ability to comfort you.
Right. And I couldn’t help but wonder, and my mom’s gone now and I don’t know that she would ever re, I don’t think she would ever remember anything like that, but it can, I could, you know, knowing what I know now, [00:17:00] been in this sort of help, personal developments, I wonder if something happened to her. It could be.
’cause it could be that’s what got triggered with something in her own. Yeah. So, and I, and I know that, uh, in the book you talk about there, depending on who you listen to, the, um, there is sexual abuse, uh, women experience some sort of sexual assault or abuse. There’s one in four or one in six. Yeah. The numbers are huge.
Yeah. And I would, I would venture to say that in the rooms of recovery, it’s the reverse. Oh, oh, yeah. In, in the rooms of recovery, it’s probably, we don’t know exactly, but we don’t know. Recovery, we would guess it’s somewhere between 70 and 90%. Yeah. I, I literally have never sponsored a, a woman in 31 years who didn’t have some sort of.
Abuse in her story. Exactly. And you know, I do a lot of work in prisons there. It’s a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. So this is not a, um, [00:18:00] unusual experience. This is not uncommon. Yeah. What we’re talking about is actually the common experience, right? The shared experience. Yeah. It’s infuriating when.
You hear people with platforms talking about dismissing it. I, I don’t wanna name names or anything, but Yeah, I know. It’s horrible. Yeah. It makes me really sad and I, and I understand, like I’ve had discussions, I have two young adult men children, and we’ve had discussions around some of this and that they’re good kids, right?
They were not exposed to any kind of violence or anything like that. I, I think it is so hard for them to fathom the numbers. Yeah. And, um, that, that it, it’s, I think it’s just hard for them to really, it’s just sad. It’s so sad. And I think it’s hard for some men to understand, right? It’s hard because then you go and you look around and you think, well, who in this room is doing that?
You know what I mean? It’s, [00:19:00] yeah. It’s not everybody in some other town. Um, it’s, it’s very difficult and. We haven’t been able to stop it. No. We had the, the, the work that we all do, um, trying to help help people have had the experience, but then thinking about prevention, I don’t know. The same thing with domestic violence.
Yeah, I think those are sort of problems that are sort of unsolvable. I wonder, um, and we do talk a lot about women, but we know that men are also experiencing a lot of sexual abuse in childhood and. Uh, in adulthood as well. So it’s, it’s not just, but this is what I loved about the book, about how inclusive, and I know that when you did the, um, the, your, your 30th anniversary, was it the 30th anniversary of a Women’s way?
Uh, Uhhuh, yeah. It became more inclusive Yes. As well. Yeah. Well, [00:20:00] because 30 years ago we didn’t talk much about, uh. About non-binary people or trans, I mean, certainly existed, but we didn’t, it, it wasn’t as acknowledged. It wasn’t in my mind when I was interviewing 30 years ago, but when they wanted to do the new update, I said, I have to interview some, some new women.
I need a more diverse group of women. Yeah, because again, we want women in the rooms. Those who identify as women are. Or are non-binary. We want them to see themselves, to find themselves in the material as well as feeling comfortable and accepted in the meetings. Yeah. Yeah. So that was important to me.
Yeah. And, and I love that, you know, you include, you, we include the men in this too. So we’re not, you and I talk a lot about women’s issues, but you know, we’re including the guys in this too. Um. [00:21:00] Okay, so I, I had like pages okay, pages of questions for you. So I had to put my glasses on for this interview. I was like, ’cause I need to read some stuff.
There was no way I was gonna be able to remember all my questions. Um, one of the first questions that really came to mind for me, um, you know, I know there’s like SA and SLAA and things like that, but in, in terms of, um. Sexual dysfunction. Um, how do we start having a, a healthier relationship? I, I, what I really liked about the book is like the, the focus on self.
And so why is the focus on self so important? The focus on self is so important because healthy sexuality is defined by the person. What you might feel is healthy for you, I might not find healthy for me and reverse. [00:22:00] So as a person, I have to have a sense of self, who I am I, and what pleasures me. What desires do I have?
What am I comfortable with? What am I not comfortable with? Um, how do I integrate my life experience and make sense of it? Um, all of that has to. Has to be something that resonates with me and what part of the difficulty is or has happened in some situations is when people have been seeking help. Very often professionals judge what’s healthy by.
What’s healthy to them? It’s kind of like the old story. Well, think about it. The old story, we often laugh about how many doctors, uh, diagnosed alcoholism by someone who drank more than they did. You know? It’s not Yeah, I didn’t think about that. Yeah. That’s not the using ourself as the only, you know, way to [00:23:00] determine something isn’t right.
You know, it doesn’t work. And so. So the self is very important, and I think there’s some basic things, and we put those six principles of healthy sexuality in there because that’s the work of a colleague of mine. And, um, that it’s, it’s really about a sense of mutuality. It’s about trust, it’s about consent.
It’s about all these pieces that I think are fundamental across the board. But what’s really healthy for each one of us is determined by us. Um, and so we really emphasize that. We give definitions of healthy sexuality. Say, what’s your definition? You know, what does that mean to you? And even if people can’t answer those questions, it provokes thinking about it.
Because there’s things we often don’t think about. Really? No, I, I feel like we’re sort of, uh, programmed and influenced by movies. Oh, [00:24:00] yeah. You know, tv, all that stuff. We’re not really, we’re sort of seeing examples and then trying to define, decide. You know, oh, that’s how I’m supposed to be and that’s how I’m supposed to act and dress and Right, right.
And all, and all that. But um, I think a lot of external influences. A lot of external influences. Yeah. And external influences even from your partner. Right. Like what is it that they want? And I think as women, we tend to be accommodating and trying to people Please. And that we’re just so externally focused that we don’t even know what we want.
Well, I think this is. What’s happened for many women is, um, they are people pleasers and they’re for people pleasers in this category and that’s how they lose sight of themselves. Yeah. Lose sight of what is it that I want, what is it that, that I enjoy? Um. I wanna be able to have the ability to say no, you know, as well as [00:25:00] Yes.
And so really working again with that, that self is so important. And for some women this will be really challenging because that’s been how they’ve operated. And actually, you know, I’ve met women who actually believe that is their role is to fulfill the needs, sexual needs of their partner. Right. Yeah.
Yeah, that comes, I just feel like, um, you know, as somebody, I see everything through the lens of like addiction recovery. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I can. See from my own experience that I was definitely, it was performative. It was, um, a power exchange. Um, because I felt so powerless in my childhood. I, you know, I, I thought love was the answer.
Right. Um, money and men I thought were the answer to my, yeah. How how’d that turn out? Did that work out for you? Not, not great. Not great. Uh, I had very, uh, dysfunctional, uh, I, [00:26:00] I used to, uh, date married men, Uhhuh, and it wasn’t until I got sober that I learned that it was an avoidance of intimacy. Yeah. And I could play the vic.
It’s very, very perfective, right? This isn’t going very far. Yeah, it was terrible. Um, you know, I if, to me it felt like, listen, the insanity of my thinking, I wasn’t really thinking to be honest, but what I was feeling was this was power and, um, to, because I really, I, I liked nice guys. Apparently. And um, and, and so when men that are like sex starved tend to seek out, they’re vulnerable and it felt like I, this is so embarrassing, but it was like a power exchange.
I had felt so powerless my whole life and then this felt like a power. Now you’re in a powerful position. I was in a powerful position. Yeah. And what I didn’t [00:27:00] realize is there was, um, I could play the victim and because. Um, he was never going to commit to me. Right. And also, um, there was no real threat of intimacy because he was never going to be like he, by, by the definition of the scenario, he was never going to be able to commit to me.
Nope. So never any real threat of intimacy. And I didn’t know that that’s what I was doing until I got sober and I started going to therapy all of a sudden. Oh, look at this scenario I’ve created. Yeah, because I was like, why am I like this? Why am I, my mama did not raise me to be like this. What is my problem?
And yeah, I got some answers and it was a little, a little startling. Um, but it was so interesting that sex for me before I got sober was about feeling power when everywhere else in my life I felt so powerless. Right. It was hard to sort of switch gears to [00:28:00] what is, and I met my husband when I was five months sober, so.
Well, I’m glad to have met you sober, I’m sure. Oh my goodness. Yeah. That would’ve been a serious repellent, but it was interesting, you know, just, you know, in the book you talk about ebbs and flows. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and I like that the book is focused on self because I think in active addiction and with trauma and stuff, we silo, we dissociate our feelings.
We, we silo things. We’re not really integrative. No. And recovery was sort of described to me as recovering your whole self. And I think that’s a good way to think about it really. And it, it is. Recovery’s a, I often talk about we have a inner self thoughts, feelings, values, belief, outer self behavior, relationships, and it’s getting those two things connected and congruent.
Mm. What’s going on inside matches what people [00:29:00] see on the outside and that, so when we wrote the book, we have the inner self and the outer self. Ah. To think about those two parts. And the goal really is integration. Yeah. Which integrity, and I think that’s what the 12 steps are about. Yeah. There are tools for how to live a life with integrity integrated.
Integrated. Yeah. You hear a lot of people program, otherwise, talking about people who have problems in relationship, you often hear, oh, I have a bad picker. Right? Like, I don’t pick the right partners, but where do you think that sort of ideology comes from? Is that, like, does that stem from dysfunctional childhood relationships?
Well, I, I think, yeah, I, well, I think there are a couple things. I think as human beings. We’re comfortable with things that we’ve experienced before. And so very often we end up [00:30:00] repeating some of the dynamics of our childhood and less therapy and we learn more about ourselves and we make some other choices.
We expand our, our pick a bill, our picker, and um, I think also often people in recovery. Uh, move too quickly.
Yes. And I think you don’t really know. We think we know some, we think we know someone ’cause they go to a meeting. Yeah. Well, uh, that’s right. I mean, I’ve had people say, well, I know this is gonna be a good partner because they’re in recovery and I’ve been in recovery five months and they’ve been in recovery seven months, so this is gonna work.
Maybe yes, maybe no. Right. Yeah. It’s, it’s usually a disaster. I feel like my husband and I are sort of an outlier. Usually it’s a disaster. Usually it’s a disaster. So I think there’s, there’s the speed at which it happens. [00:31:00] Okay. There’s recreating what you’re familiar with, even though you say, I’ll never do whatever my mother or father did.
Right, right. You recreate that and I think that, um.
I think there’s a whole belief in our society that somehow falling in love is predictive of a long-term relationship. And falling in love is predictive of falling in love. Yeah, and it’s predictive usually of passion and a whole variety of things, but it doesn’t really tell you about longevity. No, no, no, no.
There’s a whole program designed around falling in love. The love addicts. Exactly. SLA, the, the L is love addiction. It’s people that are just like recreating that, falling in love, and they just keep falling in love to get the high. Yeah, because there’s a high to it. There’s a high, there’s a high to it, and it [00:32:00] feels good.
Yeah. You know, and, and, and then you, oh. Mental obsession and all the upset, the obsession. You, you feel special. Um, I always think it’s funny listening to friends or colleagues and they fall in love and they’re telling me about this person, and then I meet the person. Your face, you’re like, huh? And the person often does not.
Reflect what they’re telling me about them at all because they have that whole idealization The fantasy. Yeah, the fantasy. The fantasy. And you know, until, until you get through that now for a lot of people when, when that sort of energy. Fantasy fades. They think it’s a message from their higher power to go to the next one and find that falling in love [00:33:00] experience again.
And that’s never gonna create a long-term relationship. No, definitely not. Um, and uh, I’m gonna go back to that conflicts. Because I feel like a lot of the conflicts happen after the honeymoon phase that you’re talking about. And, um, you know, you know, your sexual relationship will definitely be affected by, by different kinds of conflicts and absolutely.
Yeah. And, and you know, I’m glad that you mentioned, you know, having somebody that was younger to address sort of like current, um, issues that people are seeing. And you mentioned some of these, uh, my boyfriend stares at his phone all night not saying a word. Then I’m supposed to suddenly feel sexual just because we’re in bed together.
Like, that’s not how it works. And I thought, oh, that is definitely an example. Right, of current. Yeah. This is current, current relationships. There’s no [00:34:00] contact. They’re always on a screen. Yeah. And now get in bed. Yeah. I interviewed a couple not that long ago where he had a porn addiction and she was, she was a virgin when they got married, so she didn’t know what was normal.
Right. And he was like hot and cold with her. Like he’d be into her for a while and then he would just be cold and she didn’t know that he was, um. Uh, how do you say this politely siphoning off his desire style. That’s polite. You know what I mean? Yeah, I got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, these are things that, you know, people don’t really talk about, especially like in t in 12 Step, you know, these.
People are just not talking about like the, I feel like sex addiction is really interesting in, in terms of recovery groups because it’s the one thing that is like silent, it’s hidden, like, you know, but then you [00:35:00] hear, you know, like some of the guys that get around or some of the girls get around or whatever.
And then, and then it’s discussions that people have sort of behind, you know, behind. Yeah. After the meeting. Yeah, after the meeting, yeah. Yeah. But, well, no, and Pornography’s, you know, I mean, we’ve always had pornography, but it’s so much more available, you know, it used to be and extreme right. And it used to be that you would have to search for it on your computer.
Now you have to turn your computer on and heaven knows what you’re gonna get. Oh, it’s on your phone. I know. It’s just, it’s, it’s everywhere and, yeah. I’ve heard young people say, well, it’s really good. You know, I look at pornography, it’s how, how I learn about sex. And my comment is, you know, you look at a football game, but it doesn’t teach you how to throw the ball.
And that pornography, these are, these are professionals. [00:36:00] Yeah. You, this is not sex education. It’s also fake. Yeah, it’s, it’s what it is, but acting exactly. It’s not the best place to get sex education anymore than, as I said, you’re gonna learn about football by watching television. Um, that’s a, that’s a great example.
You know, so I think we have all these things happening that people have distorted as to quote their value, you know? And, um, yeah. And then, like I said earlier, and the, and the. Addiction field. The silence. Yeah. Um, and there’s, you know, um, and you know, in treatment programs, people get thrown out if they have sex.
Oh yeah. Yeah. And I can understand why they don’t want people to do that. It makes sense to me. But throwing them out seems punishing and actually is, is shaming people. Yeah. Um, a [00:37:00] friend of mine used this analogy the other day. We were talking about this. He said, you know, do we agree that addiction treatment is lifesaving?
Yes. I, for a lot of people, it saves their lives, right? Yeah. He said, chemotherapy is lifesaving for cancer patients. I said, right. He said, no one throws anybody out. Chemo if they’re found masturbating while they’re having chemo. But in the addiction program, you would be, yeah. I mean, it’s true. That’s a good point.
Yeah. You’re denying someone a life-saving treatment because they did something sexual. Yeah. Where do you suppose, yeah, I mean, that’s an interesting line. That’s an interesting line because I, you know, they say in recovery programs that you shouldn’t get into a relationship your first year because you’re changing so much and what you’re attracted to when you’re healthy.
No. What you’re attracted to when you’re sick will repel you when [00:38:00] you’re healthy, that kind of thing. And I, I, I think it’s, I think it is a good concept. Yeah. ’cause I think that first year of recovery, you need to be focused on yourself. Yeah. New relationships cause you to defocus from self. But I wouldn’t punish somebody for it.
Right. I wouldn’t shame somebody for it. Yeah. I wouldn’t humiliate them. Right. That is so humiliating to get kicked out of a recovery program for that. Right? Isn’t that, I mean, is it, where is all this shame coming from, do you think? I, you know, I’m not sure. I don’t know if it’s just part of our heritage in a way.
I’m not sure. Well, I’ll, I’ll tell you another story. Mm-hmm. Um, number of years ago, I needed to get my parents into treatment. My parents were 80 and I wasn’t gonna give up. This was my last hurrah. Right. I discussed previously. I sure [00:39:00] you, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I tried to find a program that would take. Two 80 year olds, male and female into their program.
And I, one of the programs I picked to call, they have a separate men’s unit and a separate women. Mm. So I, they said, we don’t take a couple at the same time. I said, well, here’s the situation. They really need to recover at the same time. Yeah. ’cause of how they’re drinking it. And they said, well, no, we had a, we used to, but we had a bad experience when a, a couple snuck out at night and had sex in the bushes.
And I said, if my 80-year-old can sneak out in the night and have sex in the bushes, let’s celebrate it. I mean, they would not take them for that reason. Oh, you know, it’s, it’s crazy. Like what is that strange? I mean, it’s a little strange to think, that’s like saying I tried therapy, like to make a blanket decision [00:40:00] across the board based off of one experience, one couple.
One couple does not really seem fair. That doesn’t, you know what I mean? It just doesn’t seem logical to me. That’s like saying, oh, I went to therapy once. Right? It didn’t work for me. So I quit going. I went to one AA meeting. It didn’t work for me, so I quit going. I tried one relationship, it didn’t work, so I quit going.
Like, that’s ridiculous. But I think the field is uncomfortable around sex. Yeah. Yeah. Why are, why are we so weird about sex? Well, I think we are weird. I, well, you know, I think in this country we’re weirder than other countries for sure. Yeah. Yeah. There are. In fact, I was looking at something on television last night.
Um, there’s a documentary on the woman who was the prime minister in New Zealand. Oh yeah. And, and remarkable figure. It’s a good, it’s good to walk. I’ll have to check it out. I saw that, but I haven’t watched it yet. She became the prime [00:41:00] minister at age 37. She was in a relationship and living with a man she was not married to, and in the process became pregnant, had a child.
Got married eventually. I don’t even know if she ever got married while she was Prime Minister. But anyway, in this country there’s no woman in a political role who could think about it, could be living with a partner and get pregnant and keep doing her how high profile job. The media would go crazy, right?
Happened in New Zealand, it feels like there is a double standard. I mean, it’s not even subtle. No. I mean, you look at the, the presidency, the history of the presidency, not just our current one, but every, every president, you know, it’s, it’s not just isolated to now, but it, it is sort of interesting how women are held to such a [00:42:00] higher standard.
Much higher standard. Yeah. And it kind of speaks to the, um, if a woman is sexually active, that she’s a slut and if a guy is sexually active, he is celebrated. Yeah. He’s a stud. He’s a stud. And I off, I’ve kind of come to the conclusion that we celebrate people for doing things that are hard. And so for men, for a woman to not be sexually active, it’s kind of hard because you know, she has her own desires, right?
And she’s getting propositioned all the time. Right. And, you know, women wanna feel loved, so, you know, we’re tricked into having sex because they say they love us. Yeah, they love us. Uh, but, um, so it’s hard for women to sort of abstain, whereas opposed for a man, it’s difficult for them to engage. I think that’s kind of why, you know, the, that it’s like that.
But, [00:43:00] um. Yeah. For a woman to decide to own her sexuality is, I think, you know, I love that other women, like women supporting women type of thing to sort of explore that and be, get comfortable with it and sort of let go of the shame that other people try to put on her. Right. And I, and I think that’s where, for women, it’s, it’s the support of other women that makes Yeah.
A difference. Huge difference. I, many years ago, actually even decades, uh, when I was at clinical practice, I had a group of, there were several women in my practice who were in early recovery, and I was seeing them individually and they decided they all wanted to be in a group. And one of the topics they wanted to talk about was sexuality.
And we had a number of sessions on this and, um, it was really interesting. How they helped each other. I mean, I was the clinician, [00:44:00] but I was really facilitating The Facilitating. Yeah. It was really what was happening between each of them in terms of their support and their sense of safety. Yeah. Their willingness to share, you know, secrets.
You know, we say all the time in 12 steps are, you’re only as sick as your secrets, but there’s some things we’d like you to keep secret, not mention in groups. Well, it does seem like there needs to be a level of safety in order for this particular topic to come up. ’cause it’s so, it’s so wrought with guilt and shame and Yeah.
You know, for those of us who had like a wild life before we get sober, you know, then you get sober, then you’re like, oh my gosh. And suddenly it’s like, oh my gosh, what did I do? You know? And, and for, I’m curious, um. You know, there are gonna be people listening who have had abusive, uh, relationships, um, who’ve experienced rape, um, [00:45:00] like sexual assault.
Um, how do, how do women or men or women move forward? Like how do you develop trust? Like how do you pick the right, I don’t, I am not sure I know what my question is, but it’s like how do you go from going through the experience, a traumatic event of being sexually assaulted to then feeling safe again, to expressing your desires in a safe, committed relationship?
You know, I always suggest that the first thing that you begin to do is create friendship, non-sexual relationships. In the process of creating a friendship with somebody you trust where you feel safe, you begin to recognize what that looks like and what that feels like. Yes. That makes sense. Right? And then you know whether this is somebody you feel you can trust with this part of yourself.
If [00:46:00] you start with the sex, it gets muddled. Yeah. So confusing. It gets muddled. But if you. If you’re able to say to yourself, you know, I have two really close friends, and what are the qualities in those relationships? How do I feel about myself when I’m with these people that are my close friends, whether they’re male or female or what, but close friends and begin to look at the qualities and what it feels like and know that’s what you’re looking for in a sexual relationship.
Hmm. That’s a safety ’cause you know it in friendship. We know, right? We know the friends we can trust. Yeah, we do. We do. Right? We do. Yeah. And yeah, that, that, you’re right. Um, rushing into a relationship, you sort of miss the part of, you know, slowly, um, you know, sharing something with somebody to see how they do with that.
Mm-hmm. And then, you know, share a little more and then a little more they sharing with you. Is it [00:47:00] mutual? Is it mutual? Yes. Are you the only person sharing a good sign? Right. Communication is so important. Yeah. Yeah. Trust, uh, communication and, you know, having the courage to be honest. And, you know, that’s why I like that you start with, you know, focusing on self.
What do I want? Noticing your own feelings. Like what, what am I comfortable with, what I’m not, what am I not comfortable with? And I don’t, boundaries are a funny thing because I feel like as you grow and evolve, sometimes the line moves a little bit. And sometimes you know where the line is until you cross it.
Right? Exactly. Exactly. And you know, you can always step back. Yeah. Things are, you know, most, most things are fixable. Most things are fixable. You know, I, I love in the book that you have some of these, um, in the conflict section. You know, uh, he touches me for three minutes in a way that’s fun for him,[00:48:00]
and he expects me to be aroused. He doesn’t understand that sex isn’t something he does to me. It’s something we could be doing together. I thought that was so good, and I feel like, uh. You know, from her part, like that requires a lot of communication. Yeah. From her. Like, he doesn’t know until he tell.
Until she tells him. Right. And she feels probably shy and embarrassed to tell him. Yeah. You know, and, but that it’s absolutely essential. Yeah. And that’s also you build into true intimacy is sharing these kinds of things verbally. Yeah. Not just intimacy as sex, but intimacy as in communication. Yeah. And that was kind of one of the questions that I had about this section.
Um, I feel like some of these things can develop over time. Like if you have children or you go through menopause or you know, how the thing, like, it seems like these health issues, there’s all kinds of things, all kinds of things affect your sexual health. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:49:00] so how do we communicate safely without sounding accusatory or defensive?
Because I think in that, you know, little example I read, it would be easy for her to be defensive or accusatory. And so is there a good way, is it like a time to talk about, like, you clearly don’t wanna talk about it while you’re in the middle of it. Well, that’s not a good time.
Well, you know, like any sensitive topic, uh, in a relationship, you say to your partner, you know, I’d love to be able to talk to you about something. What’s gonna be a good time today or tomorrow or whatever. Yeah. Uh, it’s not a time if you’ve got kids that are running in and out or mother-in-law’s visiting, you know what I mean?
You find a time. Yeah. And you start with. Self. You know, there’s something I wanna talk to you about. It’s really hard for me to bring it up. I feel kind of shy. Yeah. I feel [00:50:00] a little embarrassed, but it’s really, I think it’s important for our relationship. It’s not, I don’t think it’s okay for me to keep this a secret and I need, yeah.
Need to share. And you do it from the standpoint of yourself, not you do, do, do, do. But me. Yeah. I feel this way, I feel the need to share. I think it’s important for us as a couple, you know, this is important for our relat, you know, whatever, but it’s coming from me, not accusatory. You never, you always want to because that is going nowhere fast.
Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think if I heard that, I would, I would feel pretty defensive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So ice statements are really important. Yeah. That’s a good. Yeah. Um, my gosh, there was so much on this. Um, yeah, so ebb and flow, it’s, it’s, it’s important to be able to keep the lines of the communication [00:51:00] open over the years and, um, yeah.
Um, I, it’s hard to know where to go. There’s this, I gotta say, you know, an hour is probably not enough time to go over the complexities. Like you and your, uh, co-author did such a good job at really touching upon all the different complexities for all different kinds of people. And I just wanted say that I felt like this book was, um, super practical and gives.
Above all else hope. Hmm. Not just for a healthy sexual relationship, but like real intimacy and real partnership in a relationship. Because I think ultimately that’s what most of us are looking for is that Yeah. Deep connection with another. Yeah. And um, you know, you’ve got, and you know, there’s also the workbook, right?
[00:52:00] Right. And so we tried to also do this so that people could do some. Practical things with themselves, you know, to explore. And, um, like you said, it’s complicated in terms of, this is not a simple topic, but we’ve tried to make some simple steps, um, for, for people to use. Yeah, very. I’m all learn more about themselves, you know?
Yeah. And that’s where it starts, right? Learning more about yourself, because I think that we are, we don’t take the time to question as like, is this my belief or is this something that I’ve adopted from mainstream media? Right. Or is this a leftover from my childhood? Right. Yeah. You have some really interesting examples of like.
You know, ideas that people get Yeah. From their childhood, like the inappropriateness of adults, whether they’re on drugs or alcohol or not. Like you don’t need to be [00:53:00] consuming drugs or alcohol to be inappropriate. Um, exactly. How confusing that is for a kid, and then ideas and beliefs about roles for men and women, like it gets, it gets messy fast, but I, I just wanna say that I, I think that the overarching message is acknowledgement, validation, and some practical suggestions to gaining clarity about what it is that we desire and the ability to, um, making it safe to communicate.
Yeah. And ultimately what we hope is for people to experience pleasure. Yeah. You know? Our lives are fraught with all kinds of things and things that aren’t particularly pleasurable. No kidding. And so it’s, you know, ultimately we want people to experience pleasure and joy and ultimately, you know, a deep sense of connection with self and other.
Yeah. And I did read, um, you know, there several times mentioning that pleasure is a birthright. [00:54:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And that it’s normal. It’s okay. We don’t have to freak out about it. We can be okay with being weird in our own unique little weird way’s. Fine. It’s fine. Exactly. It’s fine. And listen. Hey, as we wrap up here, I know I, I wanna be respectful of your time.
I know you got a hard stop, but, um, I read somewhere that you can’t believe everything you read on the internet that you are retiring. Is that true? Well, where did I read that? Oh, well listen to the letter with the Elizabeth Gilbert letter. Um, oh, is that where, okay. Oh, okay. But I realized when I wrote the letter, the letter that I wrote to myself from Unconditional love, unconditional love reminded me that I really liked the concept good enough, and I’ve always used that concept good enough to, as an evaluative thing.
Okay. The manuscript’s good enough that this is right, [00:55:00] and what it said is now it’s time to focus on the word enough. It’s enough. And it’s time for you to enjoy your garden. Enjoy the beach. Yes. But it’s enough. And so I decided that 2026, I don’t know if I’m calling retirement, but I’m certainly winding down 2026.
Oh, okay. I will complete the projects I’ve agreed to do. Mm. You know. There comes a time and I’m in that, you know, cha last chapter of my life. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I’ve read that. And I gotta admit, I got a little emotional about you retiring ’cause you’re somebody that I’ve, you know, I’ve had, you know, you, I got your book a long time ago.
You know, that book came out right around the time I got sober. And, um, so your work has been present for me, my entire sobriety. And then I read You Were gonna retire. I got a little sad, I think I shed a few tears. I was like, oh my God. And you know, you’ve been on the podcast. This is your third [00:56:00] time you endorsed my book.
Um, yeah. So, but I just want to say thank you. Oh, well thank you. And your work has meant a lot to me. Well. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Feel very grateful to have had work that I have loved doing. It’s, it’s been a gift and wow. You know, I’m not going, going anywhere that I know of, but really know. Um, yeah. But you never know.
We may speak again. Okay. Yeah, I, I, listen, I certainly hope so. I hope if not on the podcast, I will be sure to, I have your email address. I’ll be sure to harass you in one form or another. But thank you for this book. Thank you so much for all the work that you’ve done. And, uh, thank you so much for your time today.
It’s been really amazing. Well, I’ve loved speaking to you as always, so thank you. Thanks. Bye. Bye.
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