Today I am joined by Ashley Jo Janssen, the author of “Tides of Grief, Waves of Grace: A Memoir of Scandal, Sobriety, Heartbreak, and Healing.”
When I tell you Ashley Jo was brave in writing this book, I am not exaggerating. She shares the darkest experiences of addiction: cheating on her husband, getting arrested for breaking and entering into her boyfriend’s home, alcoholism, and everything that comes with that. You get the picture. Then you find out about the tragic loss she suffered – and suddenly things start to make sense. This is such a powerful episode of hope, self forgiveness and redemption. I can’t wait for you to hear it!
Before we get to it, it’s time for “I have a question for you!” where you get to share your thoughts with the thousands of people listening to the podcast, across the world.
Last week I asked, “How do you process anger as a sober person?” Here are some of your responses:
On IG, Jason said he handles anger “With curiosity and questioning. Mostly around “is this story I’m telling myself true and factual”. Now that’s some spiritual jujitsu right there!
Amber messaged me to say that she still struggles when she feels triggered, but she feels better after she talks things out with a friend. That’s actually my go-to as well.
Shane messaged me to say that he’ll take it out on the pickle ball court! Physical exercise is a great way to move all that energy out for sure!
I just recorded an episode yesterday about journaling, and I have to say, that angry letter writing
, the kind you DON’T send is really helpful too.
One thing I know for sure, is that anger is normal. There’s no shame in feeling angry, it’s just important to process it in a healthy way that doesn’t hurt others.
Also, anger is a secondary emotion. Typically it’s a response to hurt and sadness. Since those feelings are rooted in feeling powerless it’s so much easier to feel angry which is powerful. If you really want to grow and feel free of anger, then the most badass thing you can do is to sit with the hurt and sadness. You have to feel it to heal it. What we resist, persists. So have courage, feel your feelings. They will pass and you’ll learn something about yourself.
This week’s question is related to the episode and it’s a doozy “Can you forgive yourself for your mistakes?” As you’ll hear, Ashley Jo’s story is a great example of self-forgiveness and it got me thinking of the things I still feel ashamed of, mostly around current mistakes. Like recently I went into a shame spiral for making a mistake when booking a trip, and it cost $800 to fix it. If there’s anything that still triggers me, it’s when I waste money. Even after all the work I have done to quite my inner critic, when I make a mistake like this, that voice gets LOUD and it’s CRUEL. The reality is that it didn’t last very long and I was able to forgive myself, but that really brought to light how important it is to practice forgiveness.
I can’t wait to hear what you think and share it on the podcast. As we share our experiences, we give others hope. Just follow me on instagram at arlinaallen and leave a comment on the post.
So without further delay, please enjoy this episode, and let me know what you think!
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Transcript:
Ashley, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, Arlina. It’s great to be here.
Oh my God. I was like, we were just about to get going and I started talking and
I was like, wait, wait, wait, let’s hit record because I was, I was just saying to
you. I was like, holy shit, you really went there with this book like you told
everything. I mean, I buried every part of my heart and soul, every part of it.
Yeah, I really appreciate that you didn’t shy away from the hard stuff. And listen,
this is going to be equal parts. Like, you told some really painful story. You talk
about the death of your son, the implosion of your marriage, an extramarital affair.
And like, I just want to honor the fact that you had the courage to be so honest
because you and I both know that there are so many people that are suffering with
shame. Like addiction is so rooted in shame and self -judgment and we need to find
a way out. And when we, you know, they say you’re as sick as your secrets. And so
when we tell all their secrets, then we’re actually really free. And, you know, hope
is hearing other people’s experiences. So I so appreciate that you just went there
and told all your secrets. I’m not going to lie, I had that moment. I, like, hit
publish, and then I was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, no, oh, can I take it back?
Can I take it back? You know what it? And you know how that goes. You know how
that goes. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Although, by the time I was done writing my
book, I was so sick of it. I was like, go. Publish. Do it. I’m done. Yeah,
we were talking. Well, congratulations on actually like the whole book writing process
is I heard somebody say it’s like cutting your wrist and bleeding all over the
keyboard for sure that’s what it’s like it’s like therapy and how long did it take
you to write from the time you started thinking about it to hit publish yeah so I
started writing it five years ago I wrote chapter one and chapter two and I didn’t
touch it for about four years And then I picked it back up about four years ago,
and it was six months until I had my first draft. And then, you know, the
developmental edit process. So it ended up being like a year in total, I guess.
Yeah, I really feel like that downtime period really counts.
I was sharing with you when I wrote my first draft, I hired a developmental editor.
And she’s like, you sound really mad. You sound really angry. She sent me back to
the drawing board, and I probably didn’t touch it for six months or longer. I don’t
know how long it was, but it took a minute. It takes a minute to get some
feedback, reconcile with the way you write,
and just what is it that you really want to say, what is your real intention, like
all that stuff. It takes some time to process that You can’t just, I always kind
of give people the bombastic side. I when I’m like, really, you wrote a whole book
in six months? Did you really?
No, for sure. And I think for me, like, I was early in sobriety five years ago
when I started writing. The book wouldn’t have been what it is because a lot of
life has happened between day one of sobriety to today.
And like, in my mind, That’s the most beautiful part of the journey is everything
that happened during that time. Yeah, so much happens during early sobriety. Like,
you really change so much and find the lessons and the treasures under the triggers
and that kind of stuff. Yeah, the beginning part, and I remember growing it leaps
and bounds in the beginning. And then after a while, it kind of slows down and
you’re like, where’s the big insight? Right, right, right. Living for it. Well,
listen, I like to start with this little game called The Lightning Round, as you
may know. Yes.
So I love books, right, obviously. And when I first got sober, there were so many
really amazing books that helped me. Although 31 years ago, there wasn’t like the
recovery memoirs. But what kinds of books did you gravitate towards when you first
got sober?
I think, like, how to do the work by Dr. Nicola Perra. So, like, self -help books,
for sure. And then the other books, honestly, for me, they were audiobooks and the
big book, because I, when I got sober, I was a single mom with three kids. I had
no time to read. Like, until I sat down to write my own book, I can’t remember
the last time that I actually had a paper book in my hands and was reading it
just because my motherhood duties took me. But how to do the work by Dr. Nicola
Perra, amazing, incredible, digging deep into childhood and all the trauma and all
the fun things. All the fun things. You got a twisted sense of a good time.
Yeah. She’s amazing. Man, she is blown off. I remember when she first kind of came
on to the scene. She was doing like some YouTube, like, low -res, low quality.
But her message was so good. And then over the year, she just, like, exploded. She
really has hit her stride and has really presented the wisdom and the practical
mindset shifts, but also, like, here’s what you need to actually do. Is that what
she liked about her books? It was like, that what to do? For sure, it gave me the
what to do. And I didn’t have to, I was going to therapy, but like it was stuff
to do outside of my therapist’s office. Because for me, early sobriety was all about
the power of distraction, right? Like, distraction and early sobriety is heaven in my
mind. Because if my brain is occupied with something to do, then I’m not consumed
with the thought of drinking. And so I would go to therapy, but then I’d come
back. I’d read how to do the work. I’d do all the journaling and all the prompts
and I felt like I was constantly working on myself, like doing something to put one
foot in front of the other and just get better every single day. I love that. And
I still do that today where I like to take an information because the negative
chatter is still a thing. Like I struggle with anxiety. I don’t know if you have
that still, but it’s better for me for my brain to be chewing on something
positive. I listen to a lot of podcasts, YouTube, all kinds of things. But yeah,
I really relate to that.
Do you have a self -care, like a morning self -care practice or a weekly?
What does that look like for you? Yeah, for me, self -care is all about the power
of routine. I’m a mom with five kids. And so for me, my alarm goes off at 5 .20
a .m. And I spend the first 35 minutes outside walking with my husband.
Sometimes it’s the only 35 minutes we get together and come back, shower,
get ready, go to work. And then I work out at least once a day outside of that
walk, too. So for me, it’s just all about structure and routine and not pushing
snooze because 520 comes way earlier than I want it to every single morning.
But if I want a single minute by myself in this home with seven people, it has to
be that early or I just don’t get it. So does that mean you have an evening
routine that you have like a wind down process or what is that? Because if you’re
getting up, that means you have to be disciplined about going to bed too. I am
absolutely disciplined about going to bed. My husband makes so much fun of me
because 9 o ‘clock rolls around and it’s like, Ashley is ready for bed. It’s my
witching hour. So I do. I make sure I go to bed between 9 and 10. I’m never in
bed after 10 because if you’re up that early, you’re just way too tired. But now I
go to bed before the teenagers in my house go to bed. So I’m like one of the
first people in the home.
What are the ages of your kids? Yes. So I have 8, 11, 13,
15. He just got his driver’s license today. Watch out. At 15? Yes. South Dakota.
Welcome to the middle of nowhere USA. Y ‘all are driving tractors and stuff out
there. Yes, we are. South Dakota. 15. Okay. Well, God bless him because now you
don’t have to drive him to school, right? Which is amazing. or to Taekwondo or to
any of the things, freedom, right? Yeah, I will never forget my boys when I was
like, oh my gosh, I never have to drop them off at school ever again. So great.
So much freedom. If you look back over your sobriety, do you have like a go -to
mantra quote or idea that you kind of held on to?
And I’ll give you a time to think about it. Obviously, one day at a time has been
an idea that has served me over the years. Also, it’s been like the theme feels
like to find the balance, right? It’s like I’m find the balance between achieving
and accepting, you know, it’s a balance. What about you? I think for me,
early sobriety, especially, it was keep coming back. It works. And part of the
reason that one was so important for me is I had multiple bouts of like 90 days
of sobriety and then I would relapse and then I’d get sober and then I’d relapse
and sober and relapse and I just had to play that on repeat in my head is like
if I just keep showing up even if I messed up eventually it works right and and
so I just had to push repeat keep coming back at works keep coming back at works
keep coming back it works because otherwise I think I would have given up on
myself. Yeah, that’s, I mean, a lot of people, and to your credit, a lot of people
do give up, you know, and I’m, I’m always really touched by the courage that people
have to be able to find the self -compassion amid the internal critic.
Yeah. Right? It’s a, it’s a, you know, how did you deal with the shame of,
you know what we call a relapse oh man um it was hard right i think i was my
worst critic and the roommate in my head is loud and obnoxious and tells me
everything that i’ve done wrong but to me it was really relying on the sober
community right like i i got sober online so for me all my friends were online on
zoom And it was just being willing to be vulnerable and transparent and honest and
then feel their grace. And I realized through their grace that like I really should
be giving that same grace to myself too. Yeah. Yeah. We’re so quick to give grace
to others. And I think during those moments where you just really want to be
different and you make a mistake, it’s so hard to remember to extend that grace to
yourself. I feel like we have such high expectations of ourselves, which is
Yeah, it’s sober. And I stayed sober. It’s like, oh, that’s the fairy tale. That
doesn’t exist in my realm. You know, it’s funny. So we were just talking, I’ve done
400 interviews, and there have been a couple people who have been like, yeah, I’ve
had spontaneous sobriety, right? And then you just scratch the surface. I know you
cocked your head a little bit for those on the podcast. Yeah, it’s like,
you just scratch the surface a little bit. And I was like, no, you had many times
when you wanted to quit and you just decided you couldn’t. And then you kept
trying, right? And so I guess for some people, it feels spontaneous to all of a
sudden one day look back and be like, oh, that was my last day. I think for me,
I was more I was like fighting against what really getting sober meant because
really getting sober meant I really had a problem. And I really didn’t want to have
a problem, right? You know how it is. Early sobriety, you’re like, dang it. I step
up in front of people and I’m like, hi, I’m Ashley, I’m an alcoholic. But then you
go home and you’re like, but am I? But am I? And then it’s like for me getting
sober again and again and again meant facing the mirror and saying, yeah, I’m an
alcoholic. And that means I’m never going to drink again. And for today, it’s just
today. But really, it’s got to be never again or my life’s going to be over. Well,
that’s the thing. For a lot of us, it does mean that we could potentially die.
Like this is, I remember watching this Oprah episode. They were talking about near
death experiences. And it occurred to me. I was like, my alcoholism was a near
death experience. Absolutely. Yeah. Like, I mean, I drove drunk and I put myself in
dangerous situations and I very easily could have died at any point prior to me
quitting. Yeah. And I mean, I think for me, like sometimes dying was like the best
possible outcome. You know what I mean? Like it meant like being out of the pain
that I was experiencing. And so to me, like if I accidentally drank myself to
death, maybe that would be the best day for me, right? Like, that’s the level of
low that I was at in my addiction is just spiraling and not knowing how to get
out and not wanting to live this way, but not seeing an escape anywhere else. Yeah.
Yeah, that’s a really tough place to be when you really want to quit. You feel
like you’ve tried your best. And, you know, that place of apathy that we can get
to sometimes, it’s like, well, this is just, I’m just going to suffer. And yeah, I
could really see that. Yeah, that’s a very, that’s a very dark place. Did you have
suicidal ideation? Absolutely.
And I think, you know, I was talking to someone else and they were like, I’m so
glad you talk about this because so many parents, especially single parents, don’t
talk about suicidal ideation. For me, I had two moments where I attempted suicide.
One, I’m like, I don’t know if it was an attempt. I took nine out of ampills. Is
that enough to kill me? I don’t know, right? But clearly a cry for help. And the
other time, I got two six packs of beer and started my car in my garage with
garage door shut. And just thinking, this would be a great way to go.
Like, you just fall asleep and you never wake up, right? And thank God, my garage
did not seal all the way. So the carbon dioxide went out and I’m
it’s that’s such a wrong or inaccurate statement like for me it wasn’t about it
wasn’t about it was about escaping right it was about i did not know a way out of
my mess and i did not know how to be the mom that my kids deserve that my kids
needed i i didn’t i tried and i was feeling again and again and again and I
wanted to be that great, incredible, amazing mom for them, and I couldn’t, I
couldn’t figure it out. I didn’t know how. And now, it turns out we all still
struggle like that, right? That’s part of life, part of parenting. But for me,
it was so hard. And I had so much shame about, like, my kids in the life that I
was giving them because I had been married to an alcoholic, too. And so I saw the
life that he had given them and didn’t want to be guilty of that same sort of
experience, right?
So it’s not a selfish act. It’s such a desperate one,
right, where you’re in so much pain and you feel like you’re doing such a bad job
that it would be better if you weren’t there. Like that is a very sad, scary place
to be. And for me, I had like micro trauma after micro trauma after micro trauma
like happened again and again and again. And so I was never given time or space to
like breathe and fully process through those things. So I just put on this like, I
am Ashley, hear me roar face. And externally, everybody thinks I have it all
together and like, how is she doing all of this and navigating this journey? But
internally, I’m falling apart. So a piece of it was like also not letting the world
know that I was struggling or suffering in any way, shape, or form because that’s
just a level of vulnerability that’s super super scary yeah yeah and that we hear
that a lot we we we we my husband and I had a friend who recently on and it you
know chose to end his life and the level and I didn’t we didn’t really see it
coming you know and I’ve heard that a couple of times and in in um just in my
orbit where somebody, you know,
committing suicide is like, that’s like, apparently that’s not like, I learned
recently that that’s not how to say it. It’s completing suicide. Completing. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. So committing kind of implies like a crime or something. And the truth
of the matter is, it’s like people are just in so much pain that they just need
it to end because they can’t find a solution. So that feels like way more
compassionate.
Yeah, but it’s very difficult when it seems like it comes out of nowhere. It sounds
like you were really able to keep on the mask and keep it all together and nobody
knew what was really going on. That’s not an uncommon scenario.
Yeah, that’s intense. So you’ve been sober. How long now?
Just over five years, about five and a half years. Okay, you got the nickel. That’s
amazing. I know, right?
for me, it got easier. And I think it got easier in part because I showed up. I
went to the meetings. I did the work. I went to therapy. I put in the time,
energy, and effort to heal and to process those traumas. But, like, I wish I knew
it got easier because, man, it seems like you’re signing up for a life sentence at
first. Doesn’t it tough? Oh, it’s so bad. Oh, man. I don’t have to come to these
meetings the rest of my life and no fun at all. And I have to wear that label
for the rest of my life and I can never drink again. And what is going on here?
It just, it seems like, you know, you’re being pushed in the corner and you stay
in the naughty corner the rest of your life. And I’m like, this is not fun. I
want to have fun. Yeah. Let me ask you. Have you had fun since you?
Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. I have had so much fun. In fact, I I’ve had more fun,
sober, I think, than I ever experienced when I was drinking. My kids and I,
honestly, were all wild and crazy. We all have high D personalities, and we were
dancing in the kitchen the other night and, like, just being a disastrous loud mess,
right? My husband was probably like, what is happening here? But I just remember
this moment where I looked at them and I was like, you guys, this is what healing
looks like. Because there was like a season where me and my kids hated each other,
right? Like I didn’t like them. They didn’t like me. We didn’t know how to coexist
in the same space. So to go from that five and a half years ago to dancing in
the kitchen and laughing and having so much fun is such a beautiful, beautiful
thing. And I wish that more people knew that when they were struggling, whether
early in sobriety or just before getting sober. Like, your best life is not that
far away. Yeah, that kind of reminds me of something called the law of 51%.
And the idea is, like, if you think of a balance scale, you know, you have a bad
experience. It goes on one side. You have a positive experience or take a little
positive action to heal. It goes on the other side. And all you need is 1 % to
tip the scales, right? Which sort of implies that we are actually way closer to
tipping the scales than we realize. Absolutely. Absolutely. We are closer.
You are, if you’re listening and it feels shitty, you are closer than you realize.
Keep going. Amen. So let’s talk about the book. I did something I don’t usually do,
which is printed out of it. You have a lot of notes. Oh my gosh. They printed out
so many questions because I really want to get to, I really want to get to like
the nitty gritty of this. Like, and I’m so grateful that you’re able to sort of
touch on the darkness because I really feel like that’s what people really connect
with. We really need to share the darkness because people need to be able to go,
yeah, me too. So the title of your book is Tides of Grief,
Waves of Grace, a Memoir of Scandal, Sobriety, Heartbreak, and Healing.
I emphasize the scandal because we’re going to talk about some shit today. Oh, yes,
we are. Oh,
my gosh. So the chapter, the diagnosis. Okay, we’re going to start off on a serious
note. Recounts a devastating moment you learned that something might be terribly wrong
with your son case. Can you take us back to that day? What was it like to kind
of hold that fear in your body when you get this information like how did you find
the strength to keep functioning as a mother? Yeah, I think it’s something that like
nothing in the whole wide world can prepare for you to hear a diagnosis with no
hope, right? You know, when people are diagnosed with some diseases, it’s like, but
there’s a treatment. Well, the disease my son was diagnosed with came with no hope
at that moment in time. And so to hear the doctor say, your son has spinal
muscular atrophy, and that means that there’s a 50 % chance he lives to see his
second birthday, there are no words. Like,
literally there are no words where suddenly like you’re thinking is my kid getting a
date to the prom is my kid going to have friends is he going to fit in and all
of a sudden all of those fears and those worries go away and not in a good way
in a horrible way because all of a sudden you’re sitting there going am i going to
see him tomorrow and am i going to see him three months from now and what about
five months from now and two like that’s not a lot of years, right? And so just
completely and totally devastating. And there’s nothing,
nothing that can prepare you to hear those words from a doctor echoed back to you.
Like, I really dissociated Arlena, like, oh, I’m sure. Out of body. Like, oh, look
at that conversation happening down there, because here I am up here. And like,
that’s not me. That’s not my life. But it was. Right?
23rd birthday so of all of all the things like it’s my freaking birthday you know
what I mean I’m like well welcome she was diagnosed on your birthday he was
diagnosed on my birthday oh my gosh you’re so young
wow you were young mom um when case died you wrote about being both shattered and
strangely peaceful and I totally you know as soon as I read about that. I kind of
had an image of my mind, but it was like this paradox between grief and grace. How
did you make sense of the coexistence of both the grace and the grief?
So I think it’s different depending if someone had hope while they were living,
right? Like our hope was shattered very early on. So for me, every day that case
was here was like a little bit it was beautiful but a living hell also because
here I am this medical mom having this nurse job I didn’t sign up for worrying
about monitors and feeding tubes and all these things that I am not prepared for
and when that no longer exists there is this huge like I can breathe in and I can
exhale and I do not have to worry anymore if today’s my son’s last breath,
right? And for me, Arlina, I mean,
took time to enjoy and I think from an outsider looking in they might be like
what’s wrong with her that she’s not sad but I knew the unending devastating never
ending sadness was coming and so I just let myself ride this wave of like let
myself breathe for one second let myself be okay smiling and laughing I know some
people feel tremendous guilt, I was like, no, this is what case would want. He
would want us to be enjoying our life and living again for the first time in a
long time. Yeah, I, yeah, my mom died from cancer and from diagnosis of death.
It was 22 days. And just those 22 days were so intense. Like, there was a sense
of relief at the And I cannot imagine what it was like to carry that for five
months. Yeah, I mean, it was every day, right? It was appointment after appointment,
after feeding tube, after restatory therapy treatment, after, okay, did we miss
anything? Like, it was just never ending. I was always on. Like, I was always on
the clock 24 -7 all the time. Yeah. And you didn’t work during that time.
those five months so yeah yeah no no yeah I think that’s why it’s so important to
tell these stories because I feel like people that are dealing with grief especially
when it comes to dealing with a loved one with illness there’s some guilt associated
with the relief and and I I mean I wish there wasn’t because it is the hardest
journey that you can go on is to watch someone’s time on this earth come to an
end, right? Yeah. Yeah. But there’s worry throughout that entire time and just for
that worry to be gone to know like the moment happened, the moment we’ve all been
dreading, it happened. It’s okay if you take a deep breath in and you breathe out.
And it’s okay if you feel like, I don’t have to worry anymore.
And that feels Yeah, that’s, that’s so valid. I’m curious, though, that didn’t last,
right? Like, yeah, you have a moment to that initial, like,
when you exercise and you first stop, it’s like, whew, like, it’s over. But then
the soreness kicks in later. What kind of grief did you experience once the initial
relief wore off? Yeah, I think once that like whirlwind wore off and I started
seeing everyone else go back to work and I started seeing other people like not
asking me about case anymore like early on it was like we were famous in our
church you know what I mean like everybody wanted to stop us and ask how we were
doing and when everybody seemed to move on from that that’s when I fell apart.
I mean, it literally, I describe it as like a scene in a movie where everything’s
going in fast motion, but there’s one character that’s frozen. And I was that
character frozen. Like, why is everyone still moving? Why is everyone still operating
as though nothing happened? Why are we continuing to live life this way? Does anyone
know my son just died? Hello? Like, can you see me? Is there something wrong? Am I
not here? And it hit so, so hard because life goes on even when we feel like we
can’t. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s just like the surreal part of when someone dies.
It’s like, how can the world continue on? Like people just keep carrying on with
our lives. And those of us get, that is such a great visual it’s like when
everyone else is going in fast motion and we’re just that’s what it definitely feels
like that’s rough um let’s kind of shift gears a little bit because um i’m curious
what happened like when you when you look back um where does alcohol start to uh
play a role in all this was it after his death did your drinking start escalating
after he died or what did that look like for you yeah that’s a really great
question so alcohol was a part of my life before that where my husband when my son
was diagnosed with his disease was only um 10 months sober and then when my son
died he was 15 months sober so i was very familiar with the program through my
husband 12 step program yeah yes 12 -step program. And for me,
though, I would say like my addictive behavior did start when Case was here. I had
to do around -the -clock treatment for him. And so before I did his first treatment
at midnight, I would pop to Benadryl. And then by the time I was done with his
treatment, I’d be like nice and groggy and sleepy. And then I could sleep until the
4 a .m. treatment and then I get up and I do the 4 a .m. treatment, I pop two
more Benadryl. Well, yes. And then months after Case passed away,
I realize I’m still taking Benadryl to sleep at night, right? Eventually, I got off
that. My drinking didn’t really come into play until my marriage started falling
apart. And then it was honestly to sleep. I had horrible insomnia after Case had
passed away. And so I started by just having a beer and realizing, oh, I can sleep
really good when I have this one. And then one turn into two and then two turned
into three. And then all of a sudden it’s three glasses of wine. And then that
turns into a bottle of wine. And then that turns into a box of wine. And all of
a sudden it’s like, okay, what’s going on here? Right. And I got to the point
where I was a very functional alcoholic, like even at my worst, I could go three,
four days without drinking at all. But then I would be obliterated for five days
straight, right? Yeah. And it was just so dysfunctional, so dysfunctional.
Yeah. I think that’s hard for people that are high functioning to recognize that
there’s a problem. You know, a lot of high -functioning, ambitious people are binge
drinkers. So I think that challenges the idea of what an alcoholic is because people
think of an alcoholic as someone who drinks every day, drinks it out of a paper
bag, like, destroys their life. And I know lots of high -functioning people who
probably suffer way longer than they need too because they don’t understand that just
because your functioning does not mean you’re an alcoholic. Right. And I think in
those like two or three days that I would stay sober, right? Whatever that means,
my brain would convince me, oh, see, you’re not an alcoholic. You can stop drinking
for two or three days. And then I’d go on a five to seven day binge and then I’d
be like, I’m an alcoholic. And then I’d stop for two or three days and it’s like,
see, you’re not an alcoholic, right? Because what I had seen of alcoholism was what
my ex -husband did, which he started drinking and he was gone. Like, he disappeared.
We didn’t know where he was. And once he started, there was no stopping. For me,
that’s not what addiction looked like at all. It looked like the highs and the
lows, the drinking and then the not. But when I start shaking and can’t function
unless I have a drink.
What was the hardest truth you had to face about yourself once you decided to put
down a drink?
Oh, man, I had to own the mistakes I had made in life.
And so, like, for me, the thing I carried the most shame around was my marriage
ended because of an affair. And so there was just so much shame associated with
that, especially when I grew up in a Christian home. I go to
here’s who you are, here’s what you did. And that doesn’t have to define you, but
you have to admit that it happened, right? Like step one is admitting that it
happened. And for me, it was just that, like facing the decisions that I had made
that got me to where I was. And then, and then because of that, got my kids to
where we were together. Yeah. It’s so interesting because It’s very easy to really
be judgmental about somebody who chooses to have an extra marital affair. And what
I’ve learned over the years is that people make choices sometimes subconsciously to
escape their pain. Like in SLAA, the sex love addicts,
anonymous rooms, you will hear that people get high off of,
you know, you meet somebody.
able to contend with. And so when you look back on your choices,
because we all stand at a crossroads, right, we decide which way we’re going to go.
And you write about Dominic. That’s not his real name, is it? No, that’s not his
real name. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you kind of write in the book about,
you know, meeting, like reconnecting with him and like, and how exciting that was,
what was it that you were really searching for in him that you couldn’t find
anywhere else at that time? I think it’s exactly what you said.
I was searching for an escape, right? Like my marriage had gone through some crap
and we hadn’t dealt with our grief together. And so I was just, he had gotten
sober, but it was like the grief, sorry I didn’t Rifty, but it was like the grief
of the death and like it was a lot yes grief death and then a series of moves
that got us further and further away from his home group of the 12 step program
and so like every step we got further away marriage got worse and more difficult
and he got more bold with his words and then i would just fall apart and cry and
so it wasn’t a fun relationship to be in on behalf of either of us So I was
really just looking for something that felt good.
a moment when we were together, I didn’t have to think about any of the shit,
right? Yeah. And so 100 % wasn’t escape. And then I’ve also learned that my affair
was what’s called an exit affair. So I had actually tried to divorce my husband.
And each time, it sounds so funny to say I tried to divorce him. But like I had
said, hey, we should file for divorce. We should get a divorce. And every time that
was brought up, there were threats that were made about, like, I’m going to make
your life a living hell and a lot of stuff that was said to me. So I just
reached a point where I was like, look, that’s fine. We’ll stay married. We’re going
to be roommates. But like, we’re just done, just so you know, we’re done. And so I
later came to find out after intense marriage counseling that, like, me having an
affair was my way of me being the bad guy because then he would leave me.
And then I didn’t have to be the one who left him because then the threats are no
longer viable and they’re no longer coming at me because I’m the one who did the
wrong thing. Right. So it was a way to make him not want you anymore because he
didn’t want, he didn’t want to let go. Right. Yeah. Oh, that’s really interesting.
I’d never heard that before an exit affair exit affair yeah it’s a way for one
person to get the other person who does not want to let go to exit to let go and
let go and i didn’t know this of course this was all like subconscious it’s not
like i sat there and i was like no so today i’m going to have an exit affair
right yeah isn’t that crazy like our subconscious mind will find a way out for sure
for sure yeah Yeah, that is really interesting. And I know that it was really hard
for you when all that came. How did he discover it? Yes. So we were sitting on
the couch and we were watching the TV show Justified. And I had just gotten to a
point where I was just like, I don’t, I just don’t really care anymore, right? Like
I’ve already told him where roommates were just coexisting together. So he asked who
I was texting because I was texting and laughing. and I just said, oh, the guy I’m
sleeping.
trying to get my phone. And I was like running away from him. And then he got my
phone and he called the man that I was having an affair with. So this is, this is
like a woman’s worst nightmare. And then he left my house on the phone with the
man I’m having an affair with for 45 minutes, Arlina, 45 minutes.
And I’m just sitting there like, What the hell is going on here? Yeah.
What was he like when he came back? Honestly, biggest shock of my life,
he handed me the phone. And he said, I asked him if he would stop talking to you
until we’re divorced. And I would just ask you to respect the same. And he went to
his room and I didn’t talk to him again the rest of the night. Like, just handed
me the phone politely and calmly and said, please just don’t talk to him again
until we’re divorced. And that was it. Okay. So it always makes me nervous when
people take bad news well because it always seems to come back and bite you in the
ass later. And it sounds like that’s exactly what happened because you went through
a period of pretty intense humiliation. I sure did.
He called every single person that I think I knew to like tell his version of the
story. So like in the minds of everyone that I knew and loved and was close to,
including my own parents, the vernacular that was used was like, Ashley cheated on
me. Can you believe that Ashley would cheat on me? Of course, nothing about what
was going on behind the scenes that led up to that point. Really just did like a
pretty incredible job of running a smear campaign on me. And I had my narrative,
right, but I did not want to stoop to that level and share my narrative.
So instead I shared nothing and I didn’t talk to anyone. And that was when I just
went inside my turtle shell and said, I’ll just let him say what he wants to say.
And I’m just, I guess, going to have to create a new life. But that led to a ton
of self -isolation, a ton of shame, a ton of like not wanting to also ruin his
reputation behind the real story, right? There are always two sides of the story.
And it was messy. It was real messy, real messy. Yeah, it’s interesting that you
didn’t want to defend yourself. Do you think that was because of the guilt that you
felt? A hundred percent it was the shame that i was carrying like there’s arlina it
doesn’t matter there’s no narrative that can explain having an affair like in my
mind especially in the church that i was raised in right where like that’s what i
was going to say yeah that’s just wrong and so anything that i would say in that
moment was just like an excuse right so i was like i’m just going to i’m not
going to defend myself i’m just going to sit and i’m going to take the hate and
the disappointment and the sadness and the sorrow. And I’ll just take it all because
I probably deserve it. Oh, that’s the thing, the thought I deserve it.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
So this, this isolation, was that like fuel for your addiction? All the shame and –
That is where my addiction grew, right? Like a sudden i cut i cut myself off from
all of my friends family and loved ones i can’t sleep because my ADHD brain is
loud right so i drink to silence the mind i drink to give myself something to do
because i don’t have any friends at this moment in time i just have my kids and
that is where it was just like fuel for my addiction just complete and total fuel
there is part of the aftermath in the book where you describe being arrested after
breaking into dominic’s house yeah girl what was you drinking it’s up oh man i
listen i understand crazy uh but you kind of mentioned you know did you realize you
had the opposite of the Midas touch like everything you touched her my god what is
it Murphy’s law like murphy’s law that felt like my life like what can go wrong
will yeah I mean it’s not that you didn’t have a hand in it but for sure yeah
what was going through your mind during that period when it felt like you know like
that just added more shame on top of everything else like what was going on for
you during that period oh my gosh are you asking like post breaking and entering
into his house or while i’m breaking and entering into his home okay first of all
why and then yeah did everybody find out about it about that too no one found out
about it ironically until i wrote my book like this is the one thing that when i
wrote my book and my mom and my sisters read it. I’m getting text like, you are
booked for breaking and entering. Like, what on earth did you do? Because again, I
was in the middle of my shame spiral during this. So like, then what am I going
to do? Be like, and now I was arrested because I kicked through a window to get
into his house because he locked me out of his house because he thought I was
flirting with a man because we were both drunk and so I kicked the window and he
told me to leave and I didn’t and so the cops came and they took me away. Like
there was no narrative in my mind we’re telling that story to anyone in my life
made sense. But then that just created like more isolation.
Like it was just one more thing to be ashamed of and one more thing to be,
Well, now I got this mess that I have to clean up. I have an actual legal mess
that I have to clean up. And, man, it was horrible, horrible.
And then I did what I do, Arlena, which is like, well, I’m going to make it
right, right? And so instead of, like, going away from Dominic, who had me arrested
and then bailed me out of jail six hours later. He bailed you out.
He bailed me out after having me arrested. Jerk. But instead of being like, okay,
we should probably be done. That sounds like a toxic relationship. I go,
what can I do to save him and to win him over and to get him back? Because if I
have him back, then maybe I’m one step closer to having the perfect American family.
And maybe I can have the life of my dreams. It’s so weird what we do when we’re
not well, like to convince ourselves. Maybe something’s wrong with your love story. I
know. I know, right? It’s so funny. But now I can talk about it. So that’s great.
No, we can look back on like, what do they say? Tragedy plus time equals comedy?
Oh, for sure.
110%. But, but I mean, I think the funniest part is I literally kicked the window.
Arlina, there was like a giant rock there. I could have just like grab the rock
and throw the rock through the window no drunk ashley is like woohoo foot in the
air through the window so then an ambulance had to come because i have blood going
everywhere to see if i needed stitches it was a mess it was a mess listen we
don’t we don’t get sober on a winning street no we don’t and i didn’t get sober
then either so you know i had to go further into the depths of there. So was
there, talk about the spiral to the depths of, was there a rock bottom moment that
you were like, okay, because we talked about the relapse cycle. Yeah. Right. So how
did, how did you finally have your last day? So my, I would say my rock bottom
hit and then it like took a few months for me to still get sober. My rock bottom
was when I got the two six packs of beer and turn on my car in my garage.
And like my first immediate thought after I woke up and I was still alive was
like, you’re such a failure. You can’t even kill yourself. But then the next thought
was, but that means God has a reason that you’re still here. And so I think it
took still like probably four or five months for me to finally get sober,
but I knew at that moment there was more in store and more in the plan for me
and that only I could seek it out and find it. No one else could do it for me.
I had to seek and want it and find it and get it. Yeah.
And you just mentioned, you know, God’s plan, you know, and you’ve mentioned growing
up in the church and having a strong and faith throughout all of this.
And you go, you know, when you go to like 12 -step rooms, there’s a lot of talk
about God and people think it’s a religious thing. And I don’t know about you. I
had some religious trauma and I was like, if this is what it’s going to be, if
this is what it is, I’m not going to be able to do it. Yeah. I have been begging
God to fix me for a very long time. How did you sort of reconcile this idea of,
You know, you had the God of your childhood and up until like the very end and
then this new understanding. How did you sort of reshape or reconcile your idea of
what, you know, this God thing was about? I think I very much grew up in like the
shame filled God, the wrath of God from the Old Testament, right? And so what I
had to do was fall back in love with the God of my own understanding,
right? And for me, that’s a God that covers me with grace. That would look at
someone else who shares my story and say, it’s okay. I’ve got you. Right. And for
me, that was maybe changing the definitions I learned as a child a little bit and
getting to know that God that is filled with grace and with understanding and with
truth and with purpose and I mean the other saying Arlena you asked me at the
beginning what sayings do I love take what you need and leave the rest like
honestly same thing with God that’s how I look at like my journey with spirituality
like take what you need and leave the rest you don’t understand that that’s okay
take what you need leave the rest don’t worry about it yeah I often tell this
story about like when I showed up and this gal I was like I pulled her aside and
I was like, if this is what it’s going to, if you guys are talking about God, if
this is what this is about, I’m not going to be able to do it. And she’s like,
oh, well, here, let me. She was like, here, she handed me a piece of paper. She’s
like, just write down on one side all the things you would want God to be. Like,
I was like, loving, powerful. I’m the favorite, obviously. Right? All that stuff.
She’s all right, on the other side of the piece of paper, where don’t you want God
God me. And I was like judgmental punishing, you know, blah, blah, blah, all the
negative stuff. And she’s like, okay, let me see her. Let me see your paper. I
handed it to her. She ripped it an half. And she handed me the good side. She’s
like, let’s just start with this. And I’m like, that’s it. She’s like, that’s it.
How easy it can be. And I think we get so hung up on our differences instead of
like seeing the similarities. Like, what do I need and want right now? And like,
let’s just stay there and not get caught up on the rest of it.
It works. It works for sure. Yeah. You and I are 12 -step advocates for sure. And
listen, I know that there’s other ways to get sober. I’m definitely an and girl.
And I know that you are too because, you know, you talk about people like Nicole
La Pera. Yeah. Am I saying? Yeah. So what kinds of,
so you did 12 -step. What kinds of and modalities did you adopt when you got sober?
I started in 12 -s -up. I went to an online intensive outpatient program when I was
early in sobriety. I did that for a year. Then I transitioned to cognitive
behavioral therapy. EBT. And then I went into, I actually did EMDR after my ex
-husband passed way just to process through, like,
I’m like, I don’t really know why I’m here. I just know I mess up. So can we try
the CMDR thing? Could you please fix this? If we can fix it? You know what I
mean? So I really feel like I’ve dabbled in a little bit of everything. I do
couples counseling. My family is big on therapy. For me, though, hands down, the
biggest thing for me personally is exercise. Like, I have to move my body daily.
That’s why I start out with a walk every morning. It’s why I try and make sure I
get a workout every single day because if I’m not moving my body, it’s like the
first slide into like Ashley is not going to be well pretty soon in the future.
I just have to move. Yeah. You mentioned ADHD. I have ADHD. It’s like it’s super
imperative. And it’s people don’t realize that it’s like the best kept secret to
handle depression. It really helps regulate and ground your nervous system for those
of us who have, you know, ADHD. It’s muscle contraction is medicine.
There’s this gal. Her name is Dr. Gabriel Lyons. She was on the Huberman podcast.
And it’s probably a two or three hour interview. And I’ve watched it at least three
times because she talks about like there’s something about understanding like the
mechanics of things, the mechanics of sobriety, the mechanics of healing and that
sort of help you recognize why it’s so important to do things. And when I heard,
when I realized that, you know, muscle contraction kicks off neurotransmitters like
endorphins, dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, it’s like, well, no wonder,
no wonder for sure yeah so that what kind of what kind of exercises are you doing
so right now I’m majorly into sprint interval training because I’m now in my 40s
and I’m told that’s better for my hormones than the high intensity interval training
I’m also a huge beach body girl so I do a lot of weight lifting I love beach
body um yeah A little bit of everything. At home at the gym.
At home. Oh, my gosh. I could not be found in a gym. My friend makes so much fun
of me because I’m like, that’s my greatest fear of all the things. I can get on a
stage and talk in front of a thousand people without like wanting to cry. But like,
send me to a gym to work out in front of people. I’m like, no, no, no, no.
That’s where anxiety draws the line. We don’t do that. Listen, you have your limits.
I know, I know. So we have like basically turned our entire garage into a home
gym.
remarried and he brought his two kids in so okay you didn’t have two bonus kids oh
my god no no so i have my three and then he has his two awesome yeah and how
long have you been married now we have been married just about two and a half
years oh congratulations yes we’re like still in that honeymoon phase but i also
feel like we did not get a honeymoon phase like life got crazy for us real fast
so like I’m like, two and a half years kind of feels like 20.
In a good way. Yes, for sure, for sure. Yeah, listen, when you meet the right
person, it does feel like home. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. Well,
listen, I love your story. It’s so crazy. And I love that you’ve been able to
really, you know, explore the depths of, you know, the magnitude of everything that
happened. I’m so sorry that, you know, for the, you know,
hope of recovery is that no matter how far down the scale you have gone, you can
still heal and create a beautiful life for yourself. And that’s exactly what you
did. I’m so glad that you’re sharing it in this book. Congratulations on your book.
And is it out now that you can get it on Amazon and everything? Yeah. So I’m
doing my soft launch right now so you can get the paperback and hardcover on
Amazon. The e -book will come out on November 18 and I just finished Q seeing my
audio book and I’m in love with it so I can’t wait for the audio book to come
out. That’s going to be amazing. Yeah, I have yet to do an audio book, but that,
uh, girl, I thought because I did a podcast, like an audio book would be like a
breeze and then I’m like, who wrote this? Oh, it’s me. Because it’s just so
different getting those words out of your mouth in like a fluent and well -pronounced
way. It was so, so hard. It took me three and a half weeks. Wow, that’s amazing.
Well, congratulations. That’s good. The audiobooks are, I feel like, are going to
really help a lot of people. A lot of people are into the audio books, too. So,
but congratulations. Thank you so much. And thanks so much for joining me. And I’m
going to leave links to the book and all the things. You’re on Instagram and all
the things. So we’ll leave links to all that in the show notes. But Ashley, thank
you so much for joining me today. It was so much fun. Thank you, Arlina.
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