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Today I am joined by my dear friend Michelle Farris, a licensed marriage family therapist. She’s been on the podcast two other times because she’s awesome! Her area of expertise is on dealing with codependency, how to escape narcissistic relationships and overcoming anger issues.
In this episode, we’re going to talk about toxic friendships, how to know if you’re in one, ways to improve them, and steps to take to escape them. This is such an important topic because as we grow, evolve and change, so do the relationships we have. And with people feeling more disconnected and lonelier than ever, we need to know how to make new friends too.
Before we jump in, last week I started a new segment called “I have a question for you!” and the question was “how do you feel about the word Alcoholic?”
On Instagram, one person wrote: “It took a while to be able to openly call myself an alcoholic. I attached very negative and generalized connotations to it until I identified it. Now, I embrace it because it was crucial to me getting sober.”
Another wrote: I think it keeps people that are sober curious from stepping fully into their sobriety because they think they have to call themselves an Alcoholic . In our society it has a negative connotation. They do not picture the soccer mom at the park with wine in her yeti cup who is still suffering. So, whatever you need to call it . The most important thing is that you don’t have to label it at all. You can make a decision based on the results you’re getting from drinking alcohol.”
Thank you all who wrote it!
I think the big take away here is that it’s all perspective based on the information you have or don’t have. In the end, take what you like, and leave the rest.
This week’s question it tied to the topic of this episode, which is: “Can you still be friends with your old drinking or using friends after you’re sober?” Let me know what you think on instagram @arlinaallen
So without further delay, please enjoy this episode, and let me know what you think!
Guest Contact Info: https://www.counselingrecovery.com/
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Transcript:
Michelle, thank you for joining me again. I think this is your third appearance. I’m
so excited. I love being here. I know. We should just make you my resident LMFT.
That’d be fun. Yeah, save you the hassle of doing your own podcast. Just come on.
That’s right. Come on, girl.
Listen, we’re friends And we have a healthy friendship. And I was like, hey,
we need to talk about toxic friendships. Yeah. Because I have had my share of toxic
friendships and especially new in sobriety. You know,
when I was new to sobriety, I didn’t have any friends. So I was starting from
scratch. I wasn’t the toxic friendship. So I had to find all new friends,
but it’s so interesting how over the years, I’ve been sober a long time, 31 years,
and over the period of time, I have had different phases where, you know,
there was like some sort of weird power differential where I was the helper and
they were like the needy person or I was the needy person and I glommed on to my
healthy friends and it can be, that can be problematic.
Yeah. So, you know, we could maybe define what a toxic friendship is.
But basically, I was thinking it would be good to sort of identify, you know, when
does a friendship feel toxic? How do we let go? Are there steps between recognizing
that a friendship is problematic are there steps that we can take like to try to
salvage the relationship before we before we turn it loose absolutely yeah so how
would you define like a healthy friendship so a healthy friendship is to me mutually
beneficial right there’s no one person’s needs that are dominating the relationship
and there’s healthy boundaries like
friendship, but we don’t need each other in a way that all of our emotional eggs
are in each other’s basket and you’re my be all end all for friendship. Because
that’s what I find a lot of people doing, especially in early recovery, is just
what you said, we don’t have a lot of friends. So we put all of our emotional
eggs into maybe one person’s basket. And then we don’t really recognize that the
relationship isn’t really healthy because we haven’t taken the time to actually build
it. Yeah. I heard a definition recently that the purpose of a relationship is mutual
growth, which I really liked. Ooh, I like that too. Yeah. But I noticed, like,
especially in the beginning of recovery, you know, I didn’t have many friends and I
would, it was kind of, let’s just call it like it is, I was super needy. It was
kind of desperate. Me too.
and in recovery it’s like oh we’re kind of rescuing each other right and it and it
was you know there was a couple of things that happened early in my relationships
where I would get disappointed if somebody didn’t show up for me yeah come to my
birthday party yep you know that kind of thing and if I would and if I would get
my feelings hurt and I wouldn’t know how to express it so I would just get mad
and yeah I was I was messing yeah me too I was definitely the needy one and I
think for me I had I got I had a few people drop me and ghost me and those were
those beginning lessons of oh I’m too much but I didn’t know that for years later
I just was hurt that they ended the friendship. But that was the seed that if I
had been willing to look at it or if I was able to look at it, I would have
seen that, you know what, I was relying too much on these people and I burnt them
out. Yeah. You know. Did they have any discussions with you about it?
Like I feel like you know. Yeah. And that’s part of what a toxic friendship does
is they, well, actually know one person wrote me a letter, a really long letter
outlying all my faults. It was pretty now. I wish I would have kept it because I
would have been laughing now, but they totally took my inventory. But that’s how
they ended it because they didn’t know how to end it, you know, on the phone or
in person or the other one I think ghosted me completely. And I was like,
oh, I’m gone. And Because again, right, when we don’t have any skills, those are
the things we resort to. We either blame it all on the other person, we ghost them
because we don’t want the conflict and hope that we can just, you know, start over
with someone else, but then we miss the lesson. We do, yeah. And my pattern was
to, if I got my feelings hurt, was to get it, I call it the guillotine. Yeah.
You just like cut someone out of your life. Yeah, I was like, oh, you hurt my
feelings too many times. Side note, I never said anything.
Yeah. And then it was just something. I just got my feelings hurt.
And the guillotine would come down. And I don’t even know that it was like a
conscious choice. Like my heart would literally just shut off. And I’m like,
you’re dead to me. Sorry.
Got to move on.
I just had, and it wasn’t like I had the ability to, in the moment.
Well, it’s funny because we think when something happens, like if someone hurts your
feelings, that you have to say something in the moment. And if you don’t catch it
in the moment, then you can never say anything. I think that was kind of locked
into that, you know, it was like, oh, I should have said this. I should have said
that. But the moments passed, it felt like there were too much time had gone by.
So I never said anything. And then I reached that tipping point where I was like,
I’m done. I’m just done. And I would, you know, just cut people out of my life.
And, you know, you do that long enough. And pretty soon you’re alone. Yeah. For me,
I would stuff, stuff, stuff it, all the hurt. And then one day, it came out and
it was ugly. And I wasn’t mean, but I was definitely taking their inventory and
saying everything they were doing because I didn’t know how to contain it anymore.
So I think that’s why in early recovery, we really have to be gentle with ourselves
because it is hard. It’s hard to, from scratch, figure out how to do relationship.
And maybe the first sign if people are listening is, you know, just figuring out,
is your relationship toxic? Is it one -sided? Because if it is, here are the signs
to look for. And I have some signs if you want me to share them. I do. But
first, can we sort of define what taking somebody’s inventory means? Yes. So that’s
when I am listing all of your faults, everything you have done to me. that’s my
whole focus is what you have done your behavior and it has nothing to do with me
it’s just I’m literally cataloging all of your faults everything you said ever said
and done wrong to me because that’s my quote argument for my side of the friendship
versus well wait a minute there’s a different way of doing that I might be able to
say hey listen when you said this or when you did this, I had a reaction. Can we
talk about it? That’s different. Wow, that would be such a healthy phrase.
Like, when this happened, I had a reaction. Can we talk about it? Because I feel
like a big problem of a lot of this, you know, not knowing how to communicate is
like what do we actually say? For instance, I have a client and I got her
permission to share this story. She was telling me that she’s had this, she just
turned 70, but she’s had this lifelong friendship and she was 12. And when she was
12, she was in a needy position. Her family wasn’t very supportive.
And this other gal had a very healthy family and all her needs were met. And so
she felt that she was my client like she it was her role this is what the power
differential is like she was it she was the helper and she was doing this my
client like a favor by being her friend but over the years the power differential
shifted to where my client became uber successful and retired a while ago with a
lot of money and her friend is still working and starts has started to like throw
it in her face all the time.
coming and I got to go and literally hangs up. Yeah. Yeah. And never like circles
bad to be like, oh, I’m so sorry. I cut you off. I wanted to hear what’s going
on with you. Like that doesn’t happen. So she’s at the point of like she’s, you
know, thinking about cutting this person out of her life. Yeah. And I’m like, hey,
but how about a conversation with her first? And it and the idea of talking about
it sounds like it would be really hard for her. Yeah.
Well,
practice, I think, and standing up for yourself and speaking your truth and practice
some of that relationship management stuff. Yeah. Well, and there may be some
hesitancy because it’s a 50 -plus year friendship. And once we have that conversation,
once we start to set boundaries, we’re going to know where that other person is and
we’re going to know exactly what the limitations are. And sometimes I think it’s
really hard to know that and to see that because then we can’t unsee it. So, you
know, I get it. But sometimes, like you said, this is practice. This is an
opportunity for her to just name it and say, you know, this is my concern. Can we
talk about it? But how somebody responds to that is going to speak volumes.
Because if they shut you down, if they blame you, if they say, oh, no, you know,
everything’s fine, then you know they’re not willing to dive deeper and really heal
the friendship. Is there something that we could say to that kind of person to give
them an opportunity to sort of process before we kind of get into,
like my thinking is like, I wonder, I can’t have I wonder if she said to her
friend, you know, I’ve just been having some concerns.
probably not going to matter. But I like, I like that idea because it gives that
other person, especially if they have their own traumas going on, then they can
prepare and think about, okay, how important is this relationship and come back,
hopefully, in a grounded place. But I think with most one -sided toxic people,
yeah, it’s just not going to necessarily change. Why do you think it’s so hard to
let go? I think especially with women friendships, it’s so hard to let go.
Why do you think that is? Well, I think so many people nowadays are saying how
it’s so hard to make new friends. So we hold on to the ones that don’t work
because we think it’s better than nothing. But to me, it’s like,
oh, man, I can’t do that anymore. when a relationship isn’t working, I’m,
I now am much more willing to let go because I know on the other side, like,
I met a new friend in you, right? I mean, so to me, it’s like there are people
in our everyday life that we could make a connection with to say, hey, I’d love to
have a Zoom chat with you or, you know, Something super basic just to test the
waters. And obviously, if the person says no or they look shell -shocked, they’re not
your person. But like with you, it was easy. I think I remember I just said, oh,
I’d love to chat again. You’re like, great. And then we did it. Yeah. But people
don’t realize that it takes one person to be willing to ask that question and move
on. But I think the other thing that gets in the way is people hoping that the
relationship is salvageable when it isn’t. So we keep trying, well, if only if I
could do this, if only I could be more accommodating, maybe I need to be more
understanding. She’s going through a hard time. I mean, there are a million reasons
we can give ourselves for the relationship not improving. But usually when it’s a
one -sided toxic thing, and it’s usually all about the other person. Just what you
said, what that woman was talking about. You know, they ghost you when you need
them. Yeah. They reach out when they need something. It’s like, yeah,
that, that, it’s really hard to have a healthy connection with someone who does
that. Yeah, I’ve also had friends in the past that are really private. Like,
they don’t like talking about themselves, which is a great match for me because I
love talking about you. That’s so self -centered. That’s something that I really had
to learn early in recovery is that to be mindful of,
you know, asking somebody else how they’re doing and then asking a couple of follow
-up questions. Yeah. Right. So that I want people to, I want my friends to feel
like I’m listening and I’m into what they’re saying and I’m, you know, demonstrating
some curiosity. And you do. Yeah, thanks. Listen, those, those were hard lessons to
learn. Oh, my God. I think back to this one gal, I, my first got sober, I was
super gossipy. Uh -huh. It’s super fun. It’s a way to connect early on.
I hate to say it. Yeah, it was. Yeah, because I, and in fairness, I was,
all this was new to me. It was getting in touch with my feelings for the first
time. I had so many feelings. I felt like a raw nerve ending. I had a lot. I
never felt like anybody was listening to me. So when I got a captive audience,
like, I like, you know, just, it was like a fire hose, I think.
And it And it was interesting to me as I was learning about myself, I was also
observing other people, right? And so my friends and I would get together and I’d
be like, so -and -so’s doing this and I would talk about my feelings with this
person. But really what I was doing was like character assassination where I was
really just shredding this other person looking for buy -in, right? And eventually a
friend of mine, she just like ghosted me. She didn’t tell me that she had a
problem with my gossiping. She just ghosted. And it wasn’t until later that I
figured out, you know, what had happened. Right. And that was over time,
I also recognized that gossiping didn’t feel good to me. Like maybe it was kind of
like a guilty pleasure in the moment that I actually felt bad about myself later.
Right. I wanted to be somebody that could be trusted with private, with secrets and
private information and gossiping was not helping my case. Yeah.
Well, there’s a lot to learn for healthy friendship. Literally, even how you bring
up your concern, right? Because if she had said, you know, I really like you, but
this gossipy thing is getting in the way, you probably would have been like, oh,
you know what I mean? You probably would have been able to hear it, just like my
friend who wrote me the letter. If she had just said, hey, listen, I notice you’re
a little needy at times.
It was. It’s an important lesson on both ends in the sense of when I had
friendships that they were just doing things that I was not comfortable with anymore.
You know, if the purpose of a relationship was to grow together, sometimes it would
be, you know, it’s important to have a friend who can call you, call you out a
little bit and be like, hey, you know what, we should probably shouldn’t be doing
this. Like, this doesn’t really feel good, does it? Like, we shouldn’t really be
talking about people who weren’t here, right? Right. It’s like, oh, yeah, right,
right, right. We should, we should, I’m so quick to be guilty. So if anybody
brought anything up to me, it’d be like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you’re right, you’re
right. Such a people pleaser.
But, yeah, when, but on the other, on the flip side, like, after my mom passed
away, I had a friend, and I know I was really needy. I was grieving the loss of
my mom. Oh, yeah. And it really, that one really hit me hard and I had a friend
that it was coming up on the anniversary and she knew that it was going to be a
really hard day for me like I told her ahead of time and then on the day of it’s
like I think I reached out to her I hadn’t heard from her and then I reached out
to her and then didn’t hear from her to like 7 p .m. Meanwhile I saw that she was
posting these silly videos on TikTok But I called her and left her message.
I was like, hey, I’m not going to lie. I kind of hurt my feelings that you
didn’t, you know, respond to my message. She was like, I was so busy today. I
didn’t even have a chance to pee. I was like, um, I’ve learned TikTok.
Yeah, yeah. And that really hurt my feelings. And when I said something to her,
that was the end of our friendship. Like, how did she react? she got really
defensive yeah yeah and she was angry and there had been some stuff building up to
that I had been noticing some dishonesty on her part and I was feeling uncomfortable
with and I didn’t say anything about it so it kind of was one of those situations
where it kind of came to a head and then it just came to it felt like a natural
conclusion to be honest but it was sad. I was bombed. Yeah, I know.
It is sad. And I think a lot of times it’s really hard for people to navigate
conflict in a friendship, which is why we don’t. And we kind of try to ignore it
and move on. But I think that’s where the older I get, the more value I see. And
you know what? You know, sometimes it is worth speaking up. And sometimes it isn’t,
you know, like if it’s a personality work that just bugs me about someone or a
certain quality that I know isn’t going to change. I’m not going to speak to it.
But if it’s something that really hurts my feelings and I know I’m not going to
get over it, then that’s where I need to be like, okay, Michelle, you know, how am
I going to handle this? Yeah. Yeah, it can be. I feel like also it’s so hard for
women to let go of friendships because there’s sort of this expectation that will be
friends ever yes i know isn’t that the truth yeah and yet that’s a very unrealistic
expectation in life because yeah i i wish it were true i know but yeah it’s now i
really it’s funny because the last few friendships i’ve started i have gone into
that friendship going you know what i’m going to enjoy this for what it is and not
see like okay in 10 years and 20
that’s a weird thing to think it was but it was during the time when I was
grieving my ex -husband had just died I was going through all this and she called
me out on something and I was like whoa and I and I could hear it and I said
you know I appreciate you saying something because I could feel something was a miss
because like something was off we were not connecting at all and when I finally
asked her about it, she kind of vomited it out. But the way she did it really,
it was one of those things where it’s like, oh, okay, I need to dial it back.
Like maybe I don’t trust this person as much because sometimes you can’t unsay
things. And, you know, we got back to the friendship months later, but it was never
the same.
And that’s okay, too. Like, I really realize that, you know, sometimes you don’t
know the quality of the friendship until you’ve had a conflict. And that usually is
the dividing, dividing line of, yes, they’re trustworthy and we can keep going or
maybe I need to pull down the brakes or have more lower expectations. Yeah,
I feel like expectations really play an important role in friendships.
It’s sort of like the rudder. Yep.
it’s better to allow people to kind of come and go in and out of your life as
needed. And it kind of makes me think of when your ex -husband died,
when my mom died, like when someone goes through a divorce, when somebody, when one
person in the friendship is going through something really hard, it’s how would to
what would be, I’m not even sure I know what the question is. It’s like, how can
the support person still be supportive, but still also get their needs met?
Yeah. Well, hopefully the person has that ability,
right? To like, I mean, I think I was able to be there for my friends during that
period, but they also knew I was running on fumes for a while. And but,
but I knew that in my gut, like it couldn’t ever always be about me because that’s
not fair. So for me, when we have that codependent tendency, we’re kind of ultra
fair. And it’s like just being able to come out of yourself enough in recovery to
say, you know, yes, I’m hurting. Yes, I feel like I’m broken, but I still need to
ask, how are you? And I think, I think that’s a recovery thing too, because
sometimes we can get so lost in our drama and our story and what’s happening that
we don’t remember that the other person needs to have their time too.
And sometimes we learn the hard way by not doing it and then losing someone as a
result. I have had the experience where I get lost in my own drama and dumping and
whatever. And I’ve had a friend be like, like, call me separately,
like after the conversation, call me like at another time to be like, hey,
I’m going through something. Are you, do you have the emotional bandwidth right now
to, Can I vent for a little while? And I was like, oh, my God,
I am so grateful that they said something because I got, I was so lost in my own
drama that I forgot. I realized, oh, my gosh, I forgot to ask. Here I am again.
Being the self -centered friend. It’s so embarrassing. I was so grateful.
I do that to my husband sometimes. He’ll be like, no, no, no, no. I need to talk
for a second. I’ll be, oh, oh, oh, okay. But thank God, like, I am so grateful
for the people in my life who can be like, I need a minute. Yeah.
I need a minute. Can you, do you have the bandwidth to give me a few minutes? And
I really appreciate that as a self -centered. Well, and you care. Yeah, but you care
enough. I mean, I don’t experience you as self -centered. I experience you as open
and I love that. But it’s like a self -centered person wouldn’t even be asking that
question. Yeah.
I think, yeah, I mean, listen, I’ve definitely grown. And yay.
Yeah, try not to be so self -absor. But I do appreciate people who are willing to
share what’s going on in their lives and who are willing to take up space and kind
of say, hey, I actually have an eat over here. Can you? Yeah. And sometimes that’s
the hardest part in the beginning is, you know, if you are codependent or a people
pleaser, you don’t volunteer much information. And then we actually teach the other
person that the relationship is going to be all about them. And that’s where we can
contribute to a one -sided relationship without realizing it. Yeah. I see that in
somebody that’s close to me. And what I’m hearing is that it’s this,
it’s been a repeated pattern in different relationships. I hear her saying, oh, she
never even asked me how I was doing. That person didn’t, you know, she. And I was
like, well, have you shared anything? Have you volunteered any information? And so,
like, she’s not realizing that she’s the common denominator and all these situations
where she feels like, God, everybody’s just always taking advantage of me. And
nobody’s asking me how I’m doing. Like 20, 30 year relationship, she’s just now
waking up to the fact that it’s been one -sided this whole time and that she’s
actually, she actually plays a role in it by not volunteering information.
Yep. Yep. and let them dominate. Yeah, it’s a bitter pill to swallow. It is,
but it’s so empowering when we know that because then we know what the work is,
right? Yeah. Because if we start volunteering our own, you know, stuff and sharing
and they still won’t hear it, then we really know, okay, then the relationship was
never really going to be healthy anyway. Yeah, yeah. I fear those are really,
you know, I hate to call them disposable relationships, but it’s like if you’re on
their way,
And making sure we were talking about the stuff that we did have in common, not
the stuff that was really heated, and kind of steering the friendship in a healthier
way, just what did work and letting go of what didn’t work.
Because sometimes, I think, in friendship, we want it all, right? So we expect that
person to be there for us for everything. And, you know, sometimes that’s not
possible, but you can still salvage the friendship by asking yourself, okay, what
does work? You know, what can we preserve? Even if it’s maybe we just go to the
movies together and have chit chat, maybe that’s the extent of the friendship because
you don’t trust them or, you know what I mean? But you don’t have to throw the
baby out with the bathwater. You can literally preserve what is working and then
detach and sort of get rid of or not participate in the stuff that you don’t want
to participate in anymore. Yeah, I recently had a conversation with a friend over
the weekend where she was saying that like a 30 year friendship, 30, 40 year
friendship was in jeopardy because of politics. And they just, she was like,
you know what, we are going to have to agree to disagree and stay away from
certain topics to preserve the friendship. And they decided that they could honor
that boundary. Oh, that’s good. Yeah, but I thought, yeah, you see a lot of that
nowadays. Like, our political climate is so talk, like, talk about a talk of a
relationship. It’s like it’s so crazy right now. And it’s important to have these
conversations where it’s like, hey, let’s just put aside these few topics so that we
can preserve the friendship, be respectful of each other.
Yeah.
And to me, that’s how you can see if the friendship is salvageable by just saying,
hey, why don’t we focus on what works and let go of what doesn’t? But
when that’s usually the the key is when we bring it up when we highlight the issue
their reaction to that is going to tell you whether or not the relationship is
salvageable as long as you do it in a way that is non -blaming and not taking
their inventory yeah we are respectful and loving a little bit of that can go a
long way um i thought it might be interesting to talk about you know how do we
make friends in adulthood because that is something that it’s not easy. You know,
people are busy. We have full -time jobs. You know, some of us are like, you know,
I are both like solopreneurs, right? Like we both have solo, you know,
entrepreneurial type businesses and we connect through a lot of, you know, a lot of
those issues that a lot of the challenges. And it’s so nice to have somebody who
understands all that. But, you know, when I first got sober,
I actually did 12 -step
You know, well, it was before kids, but, you know, you threw a marriage and kids
into the mix. Nobody has any time. Right. So how do you, how do we make friends
as adults? You know, I think people forget that there are probably people in your
life right now that you could reach out to. Like someone at church, someone that
you’ve seen in a meeting that you like, but you’ve never had a phone call with
like we all have people that we already know yeah but it’s being willing to take
that step to make a phone call and ask them to go to coffee um i mean you talked
about your podcast your your recovery i mean you have already all these interests
right yeah that has helped you create friendship like i tried to get on your
podcast and you and i came friends. It’s like,
I think everybody has their little groups or their interests that they could start
with. And if somebody says to me, because on my YouTube channel, they’ll be like,
oh, I don’t have any. And it’s like, well, then go to a support group. Like, if
you are doing this work and you’re watching my videos on self -help, then you’re
obviously interested in it. Go check something out Because, you know, people aren’t
going to be talking about the weather. They’re going to be talking about how they’re
really doing and what they’re working on. And if that’s something that floats your
boat, you know, you can go to free Zoom meetings and make connections. I mean,
hobbies are obviously one thing too. But I think the biggest thing is like when you
said, I don’t remember how you said it, But I think a lot of people just don’t
want to be the one to take the first step. They expect, well, why don’t I have
friends? Why aren’t people reaching out to me? And it’s like, you know what? If I
waited, I wouldn’t have friends. Most of my friends is because I’ve said,
hey, I’d like to get to know you. Very rarely could I say somebody else has done
that. So it take some some risk you know yeah but i don’t think it’s as hard as
people think because most people are looking for connection especially right now so
you know i mean people want it people need it and you just have to be willing to
put your hand out yeah i had um i got some coaching i just you know listen i
love all the all the programs, right? And I was like, oh, let me try this at the
program. Yeah. So I get a sponsor in this money program. And he was like, okay,
anytime that you hear somebody say something you like at a meeting, um,
uh, DM them and say, hey, I really liked what you said. Can I get your number? We
love that. Yeah, could I ask you some questions about this? And so he’s like,
you’re going to, and I, So when I started like sponsoring women,
I would have them do what I called a willingness call. And willingness is something
that you have to kind of tap into to do the outreach. And it stretches you in a
way. And my thing is, is like, you know, you can go to meetings and things like
that, but you actually need to start building a support network. Like, I can’t be
your end all, be all. There will be times when the show, it’s the fan, and I
won’t be available. And you need to be able to reach out to somebody. And the idea
of the willingness call is you say, hey,
would you mind if I just like checked in with you once a week, maybe a couple
times a month? And, you know, I’m just trying to build my support network, whatever.
You can call me to whatever. Can we do this thing? like, cool. And then you do
that with at least four people because you need to be current with several people
because when life happens, you need to be able to pick up the phone and get right
into solution as opposed to spending a lot of time telling somebody the whole
backstory. Like you need to get right into solution like when you’re in crisis. So
if you have a few people that if one person the answer the phone, you go to the
next to the next. And so that’s a, that’s the whole purpose of a support system as
you have several people. So, you know, I’ve had to take my own medicine and be
like, okay, got to start, you know, reaching out and calling people. And it’s like,
it’s awkward. And then it’s not, and then you find out some people are not going
to call you back. Just, just, just know that a bunch of people are not going to
call you back. and that’s okay but and some people will call you back and you
don’t want to talk to them
so it can take a minute right to find like you get someone on the phone you’re
like oh they’re bad shit crazy yeah yeah they’re not for you they’re not for you
yeah but then you find that treasure and then it makes all the effort worth it so
that that would be my um strategy for making friends.
Well, and the other thing, I love that you just said that because I feel like most
people don’t realize now when you’re dating someone, right, you don’t get married on
the second date, right? You literally have to get to know someone. But with
friendship, especially in recovery, I notice people are like, boom, they’re going to
just get glued together and… I’m going to tell you all my secrets. You tell me
all your secrets. And you know what? The same process applies. We need to interview
those friends over a period of months to see if they’re a good fit. Yeah.
And most people don’t take the time to do that because they’re so lonely, they just
glob on. But like you said, if you have four different people that you’re calling,
it’s going to be easier for you to let go of the ones that don’t work because
you’re not putting all your emotional eggs in one person’s basket. Yeah, some way
more balanced approach. Yeah. Balance was not my get down. I’m sort of a black and
white. It’s true. Most people in recovery are the same. Yeah. Yeah.
Which I think is why we sort of trauma bond. We tell each other our worst stories
like, oh my God, friends forever. Yeah. Totally. And sometimes that works, but
sometimes eventually kind of needs to shift into something healthier. Yeah, can’t be
all crisis all the time. Yeah, need to be able to do some fun stuff too. Yes.
Yeah. I feel like we covered a lot. So we covered what a toxic friendship is,
how to maybe negotiate our needs, how to make new friends.
We’ve covered, you know, those stressful periods like divorce or grieving stuff like
that. I feel like we covered a lot of scenarios. Are there any scenarios?
Oh, what if you’re like besties with somebody and then they get into a relationship?
Yeah. I love when you brought that up before we started because that is a real
adjustment, especially if you have put all your energy in time in that one person.
left, even though you’re not being left, but it feels like it because it’s going to
change the intensity of their relationship. That is an invitation for us to sort of,
one, befriend ourselves, which is not the sexy part, right? This is not the part.
That’s right. Nobody wants to do it. But that’s the piece that did the biggest
shift for me in my recovery is really being solid within myself to go, you know
what, like the other day I was going on errands. I loved it. I was like, oh my
God, you know.
when the reality is they just don’t, literally don’t have time. Right.
And sometimes I think for me, this comes up with a lot if people are introverted
because like I had one friend and she said, when I go through something,
I don’t ask for help. So if she goes through a hard time, she disappears. And I’m
like, whoa, that’s so opposite of me. But I had to kind of realize that,
okay, that’s how she’s built.
And not to take it personally when she would disappear. And I think sometimes when
people are introverted and they’re much more private, we can take that personally
versus, you know what, this is just how they’re built. They’re not going to be
super open about every aspect of their life because they’re just not comfortable
doing that. Yeah, It makes a lot of sense. I have a friend who kind of disappeared
from it. And I was like, I reached out. I was like, hey, just check it out on
you. You haven’t heard from you for a while. Just kind of occurred to me and then
found out that, you know, they had, they had been going through something. And what
I know about them, you know, because I’m always like, well, I should never reach
out to me. I’m here to help. I’m a helper. I’m a helper. Me too. Let me help.
Right. Like my whole purpose of life. And I, and but when she explained to me
that, like, I’m, like, I’m.
personally. Yeah. And just accept her how she is. Like if she wants to, you know,
just like give her the space to, you know, and actually I was like, hey, you just
kind of pinged her. How are you doing? And because she was on the other side of
it, she was able to talk about it. We were able to kind of reconnect. And I was
like, oh, that’s right. She isolates when she’s under a lot of stress. And so I
felt compassion for her, didn’t take it personally. Well, yeah, and it helped you
keep the friendship because you know what’s realistic to expect versus what isn’t.
What’s realistic to expect? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. What do you do with friends who are
late all the time?
You know, my ex -husband used to be late all the time. And I remember for a little
while, I played the game of 15 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But eventually it was
like, you know what?
I had to accept it because you’re not, you know, you’re not going to change
somebody who is late, but that doesn’t mean you can’t set a boundary around it and
go, you know what, maybe I’ll meet you there or, you know, this doesn’t work for
me because I’m always waiting 30 minutes and I just don’t have it. You know,
sometimes stuff like that can be a deal breaker if it’s so much that it gets in
the way of the friendship yeah if it’s like i had a friend that was like
consistently late like every time it wasn’t just like once every time so i was just
like you know what i’ll give anybody 15 minutes yeah but after 15 minutes i’m out
because um 15 minutes was my threshold for a catching a resentment oh i love it i
love that i was like if i sit here longer than 15 minutes, I’m going to start
getting really resentful. Yeah. So, and my husband, when we first started dating,
he was late for everything, and we were on our way to a wedding, and I’m
obsessively early, so that I know that’s annoying, too, obsessively early. My daddy
was in the military. He was like, you are either on time or you’re late. There is
no early. You’re on time or you’re late. And that was not acceptable. So we were
going to a wedding, And he was going to be late. And I was like, you know what?
I’m leaving. Yeah. I was like, I’m leaving. I don’t want to be stressed out about
being late. And of course, we were hell early. But like being late stresses me out
so hard. I just can’t tolerate it. And over the years, like that like that kind
of, we nipped that in the bud really early. But you were willing to take care of
yourself around that and not make them do what you wanted. Yeah. Which is why it
worked. Yeah, I was like, you can meet me there. And, you know, honestly, he
hustled and got ready and we got there early. And he was like, you made me rush
for nothing. And I was like, no, I didn’t because I’m not stressed out now. Right,
right. Well, and he had a choice, right? He could have said, I’ll follow you there
and I’ll be late. Yeah.
So, yeah, that’s one thing that I know in relationships, like when someone’s late
all the time, that can be a real or real pain. Yeah. Yeah,
it’s all about what you can accept and when you need to speak up. Yeah.
Well, this is really helpful. I feel like we covered a lot of ground and gave some
practical examples, you know, speak your truth about blame or judgment and recognizing
if it’s one -sided, that’s a toxic friendship. and you have every right to release
with love. That’s right. That’s right. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for hanging
out with me today and all the days that we get to hang out. I so appreciate you
as a friend and all your wisdom. I appreciate you too. Yeah, we’ll talk again real
soon. Thank you.
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