Arlina Allen:<\/strong> works. Hope it works
<\/p>\n\n\n\nWell, listen, um, I’m so grateful that you’re able to join me today. I got to be on your podcast with, on Therapy Brothers, and, um, spent some time with you and Brandon.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was such a great experience for me, uh, he and I did a episode together, and so now you’re on the hot seat.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> You get, you get Brandon who’s the younger brother, but maybe a little more talented, and now you get the older brother today. So we’ll see where it goes. Yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> This is good. And listen, uh, we’re gonna be talking about relapse, relapse prevention, you know, what, what to do if you do relapse and, and some ideas around guilt and shame.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nSo, um, what would you say the listener is gonna get by the end of the episode?
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah, hopefully by the end of the [00:01:00] episode, we’ll talk about a working definition of shame, how it affects your overall recovery, and then we’ll give a few tools and practical
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> practical
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> skills that you can use to become shame resilient
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> I love that. Let’s start off with a little bit about who you are. How long have you been a therapist? I’ve been a therapist since… I think I graduated in 2005 as a licensed marriage and family therapist.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> I’ve been a therapist since, I think I graduated in 2005 as a licensed marriage and family therapist.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Okay. You got
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> some decades in there.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Too long.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Too long. It’s like
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> It’s like a life sentence. Uh
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, listen, I mean, that just speaks to your dedication and your passion for, for helping people, and I was telling you before we hit record that after about 500 episodes, I have a pretty good BS detector, and you guys have such a good vibe.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nI can really tell not only that you get the addiction recovery space because not all therapists do. Uh, you’d be, you’d be shocked at some of the things that I’ve heard over the years.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> oh, I’m, I can imagine
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Oh, I, I can imagine. Yeah, but I think it’s so important that if somebody’s early [00:02:00] recovery, thinking about it, to, sort of employ somebody or, um, get some help from somebody who really knows the space.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nThere’s a lot of nuance to it, for sure.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> 100%. And yeah, you’re right, Arlina, this is all, all of, all of my skin is in the game here because everything we talk about is stuff that I’m working on myself. You know what it’s like, you know?
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah. Are you in… You’re not in recovery yourself, are you?
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah, I’ve been in recovery since my wife found out all my garbage about seven years into marriage.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> All
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> And,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> and
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> yeah, and then I decided to,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> to,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> I better make some changes or I was gonna lose everything that was important to me. So yeah, I’ve been in recovery for about, I don’t know, 15, 20 years now
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Okay. What are you in recovery from?
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> addiction
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Okay, that’s the… You know what? I am so glad you said that because that is… I was… You know, so my podcast is 10 years old now, and I was going through some of my analytics, and I’ve only done a couple of episodes on that, but those are some of the [00:03:00] highest ranking episodes. I don’t think people really understand um, easy it is to hide in that addiction
<\/p>\n\n\n\nand how destructive it can be.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> 100%. And for me it was the thing that would, could be kept secret the easiest. You know, substance addiction, I would’ve been busted a lot faster probably. So, so
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> my hand.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> yeah, yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> so, and, and I think that’s one of the reasons why I like talking about shame so much is because shame was the thing that was the real problem even more so than the acting out was itself
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. A- And you know, you guys call it acting out and sex addiction, um, in drug and alcohol it’s like relapsing or using, and those are both sympt- those are both solutions to the problem of shame in most cases, right? Either, deep-rooted trauma that has gone on, gone unresolved that people don’t even know that they have [00:04:00] they’ve dissociated from it.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nSo a lot of people are walking around with trauma, and they don’t even know it. really kinda crazy.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> That’s, uh, 100%. We, we talk about, we call it the trauma tree with our clients, where they come in with a presenting problem, and it’s usually the relapsing or the acting out or the, the addiction itself. That’s the fruit, and then we start looking at the fruit and saying, “Okay, what’s happening to create this fruit over and over again that’s not working for you?”
<\/p>\n\n\n\nAnd then we get into leaves and branches, which are all the ways we perform the different layers of denial, the different behaviors that protect the addiction, and then it moves down to the core, which is the trunk of the tree, and that’s where our core beliefs are formed. The I am basically blank. I’m not enough, I’m weak, I’m unlovable, and that’s tied to the roots, and the roots of the tree are our life experiences that have informed the beliefs, that inform the way we show up, that then lead to the coping that we have.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And so people [00:05:00] come in and they think, “Oh, I’ve got this problem,” and they list off the, the acting out, the using, and then we have to start saying, “That’s actually the fruit of a deeper plant, and let’s address the whole plant
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Arlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And, and listen, um, the, the fruits or the what’s, what’s obvious, like the problem, like that, those are just the symptoms, right? And I always… It’s so interesting ’cause I did a, um, hypnosis certification. I do that with some of my clients. And what’s so interesting is, like, people have, like, a feeling, which is typically a response to some sort of, uh, situation, right?
<\/p>\n\n\n\nThey experience a, a situation. They have some sort of feeling, and based on that feeling, based on their beliefs, they make a decision, and then they take action, and then that invokes the law of cause and effect. People take action. They experience the effect. And what happens, I think of it like a racetrack, right?
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Like, people keep [00:06:00] taking steps. They take actions, uh, but they end up right where they started. Like, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve talked to somebody, and they’re like, “How did I get here again?” And they don’t understand that It starts way subconsciously with your ex- the experiences and the conclusions that you came to based off of those experiences.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And typically, those conclusions that, um, were developed, uh, happen in childhood. Like, by the time you’re eight years old, you sort of have all these subconscious beliefs. And it’s almost as if an eight-year-old is deciding how to run your life.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> It feels that way sometimes, right?
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> My, my wife tells me all the time, she’s like, “Tyler,” like, “why do you love your job so much?” And I said, “Because I get to, like, hang out what feels like my high school buddies every single night when I do my groups.” And it’s because emotionally that’s kind of where we’re at.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nSo yeah, using, using that analogy of the racetrack, this would [00:07:00] maybe be a good way to describe the cycle of shame a little bit ’cause there, there is like a racetrack to it. Is that okay?
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Arlina Allen:<\/strong> please tell me.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> So yeah. So it starts with exactly what you were just saying there, these beliefs that start to form that we don’t even realize are forming as we’re growing up, and it starts with this core belief that says, “I am basically blank.”
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> your
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> maybe your listeners can plug this in for yourselves, okay? So I am basically weak.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> seems to be a big
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> I’m not good enough, inadequate, unlovable. My, my big one is failure. I’m a failure. Um, and that belief has been reinforced through life experiences without us knowing it, and so it just feels true. And then that leads to a second belief that says, “If people really knew me, they blank.”
<\/p>\n\n\n\nThey won’t love me. They’ll reject me. They’ll judge me. And that’s our biggest fear as human beings because we’re wired for connection and attachment, and now we believe something is so flawed in us that if [00:08:00] people saw it, they won’t love us. And so we form ways of coping, and we call it the masks. We perform the way that people want us to be, or at least we think that, but we never let anyone get too close, and then we feel alone.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And so we’re rounding the track. We get to a third core belief that says, “I have to be on my own. I have to take care of myself. I should be independent. I’ve got my own problems. I need to cope with life, but I’m gonna be perfect for everybody.” And then life happens, and you get bored, lonely, angry, stressed, tired, hungry, rejected, whatever, and that’s where we end up in the mood altering experience, which is the drugs, alcohol, sex, porn, video games, spending money, whatever that is.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
We get the little bit of relief, and our brain says, “Ah, I don’t have to think about this for a minute.” But then we end up either feeling completely numb, or we feel this, like, guilt. [00:09:00] It’s like, “Ah, something’s not right. That was outside of my values.” Either one of those is a sign that we should change, but instead we just loop back to the end of the track again which is, “What you just did is proof that you’re no good,” and let’s just cycle it through again and again.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that’s exactly what shame is. That’s how shame works.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Arlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah, you know, that shame spiral is terrible because I think, um, one of the symptoms that I see in people that are going through sort of the drug and alcohol addiction is they’re– while under the influence, they do things are… So it’s not only just the using, but it’s the, um, acting out under the influence, doing things that you wouldn’t– that are super out of character. You know, like, uh, saying things that you don’t really mean or, um, sexual promiscuity or spending money or putting yourself in dangerous situations. A-and then so then it– then you wake up the next day, and you kinda come to your senses, [00:10:00] and then the meaning that people typically assign to themselves, it’s not just, “I’m not good enough.”
<\/p>\n\n\n\nIt’s like this annihilation. It’s like character assassination to the tenth degree. It’s so bad. It’s, it’s just such, like, self-loathing, self-hatred. know, it leads people to a really dark place, and then trying to, like, do the, um, mental gymnastics of, Oh, maybe next time I’ll be able to control it.” I mean, it’s a, it’s a whole thing. it’s a mess.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> Oh, it’s huge. Uh, and I think what you s- spoke there is really pivotal in recovery work, uh, for people who are maybe brand new to this and they’re thinking, “I just need to stop using alcohol or drugs or something.” The bigger part of this in a lot of ways for a lot of people is the beating yourself up in all the garbage that took place when you were using,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> And then you’re looking at your s- self, and instead of going like, “Phew, that wasn’t in my values. I probably ought to make some
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> you’re horrible.” And-
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> changes or [00:11:00] choices,” it turns into, “You’re the worst person. I can’t believe. You’re the h- you’re horrible.” And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100, 100%.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> We do a lot of swearing in my hood. We’re swear- \u00e7\u0153\u0178
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah, for sure. And, and we’re the, we’re the worst to ourselves, aren’t we?
<\/p>\n\n\n\nYeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Arlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah, things you can’t even say out loud. But yeah, it’s, it’s terrible. The, the self-annihilation is, is, is brutal. then it does sort of reinforce this idea that I do need to be alone. Nobody’s coming to rescue me. I gotta figure it out on my own. And this, you know, it’s so funny, like I always say, in 12 step, figure it out is not a slogan.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah
<\/p>\n\n\n\nthat’s not a slogan for a reason,
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> I, I need to figure it out. It’s like my best thinking got me into this situation to begin with. But it’s not really on a thinking level, on an emotional impulse level.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nCan you talk to me about the impulses that [00:12:00] trigger people to just, even though they have all this data drinking is bad for them, what causes them to just throw that all out the w- we call it the fuck its.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> yeah. yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> swear, but
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah, they call it, yeah, they call it the case of the fuck its or, um, I think the, uh, the research term that was coined in the academic world was the what the hell effect. And,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> okay,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> it’s a, so they did the… I- they did a really cool study.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> I know. They did a cool study at Duke University where they brought a bunch of people into the lab, and they had them eat a donut really fast and then drink a big glass of water to make them feel kind of miserable.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nAnd then they walked them down the hall and opened up another room to a table full of different kinds of chocolates. And they said, “We want you to taste test this. You eat as much as you need to to get a good reading on all of these things.” And, uh, but what they were really measuring [00:13:00] was the what the hell effect.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And half of the people walked down the room. The person would say, “Hey, we know that people feel disgusted with themselves, and they feel kind of full and like they’ve let themselves down. Don’t. Everybody indulges once in a while. You’re gonna be okay.” And then the other people, they just left in their own minds.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people who got the message of self-forgiveness ate around twenty-nine grams of chocolate to get the r- assessment. And the people who got no self-forgiveness, they ate over seventy grams of chocolate.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Arlina Allen:<\/strong> Oh
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> so what they were measuring was that thing in our heads that says, “You suck.” And, you know, once you get the you suck going, the case of the fuck its comes in,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> now all of a sudden it’s not just, “Oh, I’ll have a couple drinks.”
<\/p>\n\n\n\nI’m gonna hammer… get hammered, and then I’m gonna spend all my money, or then I’m gonna sleep with someone else, and then… And, and that’s exactly what happens. And what’s crazy about this is we think [00:14:00] we’re gonna solve the problem by beating ourselves up over and over again, only to find ourselves there time and time again
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Arlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah. whole idea of, um, beating ourselves up, it’s like, you know, trying to run a marathon on a broken leg. Like, it just doesn’t make any sense that if you beat yourself up, you’re, you’ll somehow beat yourself into submission. But it’s, it’s sort of like this…
<\/p>\n\n\n\nWhat I, I find that, um, any time we tell ourselves that I should do something, it, like, creates this natural internal resistance to make us wanna rebel. There’s a, a l- a lot of people with, uh, addiction issues have, like, this really big rebellious streak, and I think it’s because we go through the cycle of using, you know, um, like you give in, you relapse, you use, uh, all hell breaks loose, you feel horrible the next day.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Then you’re like, “Okay, I’m gonna do this thing,” and it’s sort of like doormat to dictator, right? Like, you, you just sort of, like, lay [00:15:00] down and just let the world run over you, and then the next day you become, like, this rules dictator. Everything’s gonna change. My diet, my… I’m gonna read a journal and exercise and do the…
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Do you know what I mean? Do the whole thing. But what that does, it, it creates, like… It’s saying, “I should d- be doing this” or, “I should be different even” or, “I’m…” Do you know what I mean? So it’s like all this resistance is created, and I feel like that creates, like, a sense of rebellion rather than, like, “I’m going to exerci- exercise because I feel better afterwards” or, “I’m gonna eat, make good health- food choices ’cause I feel better afterwards, not because that I should.” What c- what… How do you feel about, you know, creating an environment that you’re sorta led by, um, good feelings instead of shoulds?
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> Oh, I love where you’re going. This ties directly into shame, because shame is like this teeter-totter of control, be perfect, let it all [00:16:00] go, beat yourself up. And I think people, y- they associate accountability with beating themselves up and, and they get it wrong because then when they beat themselves up, then they’re in the shoulds and now they’re being coerced into making a good choice for themselves rather than trusting themselves first and then listening to what’s best for them.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nSo if, if I wake up in the morning and I ask myself, “What’s gonna be good for me today?” I can tell you right now that heroin or alcohol or for me, pornography or other women or whatever, that’s actually not good for me. But I have to have a level of self-trust first. And so accountability comes when I’m making choices for the life that I want
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Arlina Allen:<\/strong> want
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> than because I’m so bad.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> bad.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Right?
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah. I feel like that self-trust piece is so [00:17:00] important, because when you’re going through the, these cycles, guilt and shame, addiction relapse, the, these cycles that we go through, um, that’s, that’s a really big part of that.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Uh, 100%. That’s what holds it all in place, right? And that’s what shame does, is it takes trust away from ourselves because we believe we’re not worthy of, you know, trust, connection. It pulls us into an isolated hole rather than becoming shame resilient and going, “Wait a second, what I’m experiencing is human.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nI can do something about it. I can keep growing into my values, and I l- I can like what I see in the mirror even if I’m not perfect
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Arlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah. What are… I mean, I think you just kind of encapsulated it, but to just be really specific about rebuilding trust, you think of it as a process? Are there s- some more ideas, mindset around…
<\/p>\n\n\n\nAre there specific [00:18:00] actions people can take to rebuild trust? Self-trust.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah. Are we talking trust with self or…
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Or-
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So these are some shame resiliency tools that we teach in our practice. We teach the three Cs of shame resilience,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Okay.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> and the first one is to learn how to use context pro-appropriately. Shame wants us to go into a tunnel and think that we’re the only ones who are dealing with X, Y, or Z, and context opens up that tunnel and says, “Wait a second.”
<\/p>\n\n\n\nSo like for instance, if I’m addicted to pornography, let’s say, I think I’m the only one out of anyone that I know that keeps this secret in place. And yet when I do the research, the industry s- makes over $100 billion a year, and about 70% of men are pursuing pornography at least monthly. Um, that’s not an excuse, but what it does is say, “Wait a [00:19:00] second.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What I’m dealing with is a human thing. Like it’s part of the human condition.”
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Arlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Right? So if I can s- broaden the context, understand the nature of the problem, then it’s not a me thing, like I suck thing. It’s, it’s like a, “Ooh, this is a human challenge that I have to figure out.” Right?
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> So
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> that idea of a human challenge. Um, I like to reframe some of the language in 12-step where they talk about character defects.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Hmm
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> I like to think of them as human frailties. I think there’s something so powerful about understanding the science behind the mechanism because then you see, oh, it’s not personal. It’s not personal to me. You know, a lot of people this same issue. It’s just a human condition.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> All right.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> listen, everybody’s got something. Like, if people who say, “Oh, I don’t have an addiction,” okay, uh, give me your phone
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah, right.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> know what I mean?
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Well,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> [00:20:00] Lock up your phone for 24 hours. Let’s,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> see how that goes. Yeah. It’s because… Well, and the point that you’re actually making is, is that we are kind of wired that way,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> and anyone could look at this from a much smaller level if they wanted to. But if you get your dopamine for free or cheap, there’s a pretty good chance that you’re right on the verge of something addictive
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> the verge of something addictive
<\/p>\n\n\n\nFor free or for cheap. There was this guy, I can’t remember his name, but, uh, he said, “Easy choices, hard life. Hard choices, Easy
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tyler Patrick:<\/strong> laugh. Yeah
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> Yeah. You know, so these easy choices of, like, giving into the phone, pornography, drugs, alcohol, shopping, uh, maybe Netflix in my case,
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah
<\/p>\n\n\n\nYeah,
<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Arlina Allen:<\/strong> a little TikTok.
<\/p>\n\n\n\nTyler Patrick:<\/strong> Yeah
<\/p>\n\n\n\nArlina Allen:<\/strong> haven’t mastered putting it down after 10 minutes.