{"id":6033,"date":"2026-02-11T07:02:53","date_gmt":"2026-02-11T15:02:53","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/?p=6033"},"modified":"2026-02-12T09:37:39","modified_gmt":"2026-02-12T17:37:39","slug":"can-i-moderate-my-drinking","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/2026\/02\/11\/can-i-moderate-my-drinking\/","title":{"rendered":"Can I Moderate My Drinking? Why This Question Changes Everything"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"\">Answering This Question Matters More Than You Might Realize<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">For most of my recovery journey, I held a pretty firm belief:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">If you\u2019re questioning your drinking, the answer is probably abstinence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">That belief came from both lived experience, as well as observing other people who struggle with alcohol.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Personally, I never drank normally. From the very first drink, the switch flipped on\u2014and it stayed on. I hit a hard bottom early, and after years of trying to moderate, the answer for me was clear: I could not moderate. As it turned out, for me abstinence meant freedom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And still\u2026<br>Over time, something softened in me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Not because I changed my relationship with alcohol\u2014but because I started listening more closely to <em>other people\u2019s<\/em> experiences.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Question Everyone Has to Answer for Themselves<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I\u2019ve come to believe this:<br>\u201cCan I moderate?\u201d is not a denial question. It\u2019s a developmental one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">For many people, it\u2019s the <em>pivot point<\/em> of their entire recovery journey.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Some people answer it quickly.<br>Some answer it painfully.<br>Some don\u2019t answer it until years\u2014sometimes decades\u2014later.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">But skipping the question doesn\u2019t make it disappear.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And that\u2019s why my conversation with Nick Allen, CEO and co-founder of Sunnyside, felt so important.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Nick grew up in an AA household. Both of his parents are in long-term recovery. He understands abstinence deeply\u2014and still, his own relationship with alcohol took a different path. Instead of waiting for a crisis, he began asking a quieter question early on:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><em>What does a healthy relationship with alcohol look like for me\u2014right now?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">That question eventually became Sunnyside: a platform designed to help people explore change before things fall apart.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Missing Middle<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Here\u2019s the reality I see again and again:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Most people are offered two options:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\">Figure it out<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Quit forever<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And when those are the only choices on the table, a huge number of people choose to keep trying to figure it out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Not because they\u2019re reckless.<br>Not because they don\u2019t care.<br>But because abstinence can feel overwhelming, stigmatizing, or premature\u2014especially for people who are still functioning \u201cwell enough.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Research suggests there\u2019s often a 10-year gap between when alcohol becomes a problem and when someone seeks help.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Ten years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Think about what happens in ten years:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\">Careers strained<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Health eroded<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Relationships damaged<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Kids absorbing instability they can\u2019t name yet<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Waiting is not neutral.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Why Willpower Isn\u2019t the Answer<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">One thing Nick and I aligned on immediately:<br>Willpower is a terrible long-term strategy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Willpower is finite. It\u2019s lowest at the exact moments people need it most:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\">After a long day<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">During stress<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">At the witching hour (5\u20137pm)<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">On Fridays when it\u2019s \u201cbeen a week\u201d<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Sunnyside takes a different approach:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\">Decisions are made ahead of time, when clarity is high<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Habits are supported with structure, not shame<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Accountability is externalized, not moralized<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">This is how real behavior change works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A Word About Naltrexone (And Nuance)<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">We also talked openly about naltrexone, a medication that\u2019s been FDA-approved for decades to help reduce alcohol cravings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Here\u2019s what matters:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\">It doesn\u2019t make people sick<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">It doesn\u2019t require abstinence<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">It reduces the <em>reward loop<\/em> that drives compulsive drinking<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I\u2019ve had clients use it successfully\u2014particularly high-functioning people who struggled with the \u201coff switch,\u201d not daily drinking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">But for people earlier in the process\u2014people quietly wondering, <em>\u201cIs this still working for me?\u201d<\/em>\u2014tools like this can interrupt years of silent suffering.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Language Matters More Than We Think<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">One of the most powerful parts of this conversation was about vocabulary.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Words like <em>addict<\/em>, <em>alcoholic<\/em>, <em>relapse<\/em>, <em>recovery<\/em>\u2014they carry weight.<br>For some people, they offer clarity and belonging.<br>For others, they create shame, fear, and avoidance.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">If the language feels too heavy, people wait.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Sunnyside intentionally avoids labels and instead talks about:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\">Alcohol overuse<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Habit change<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Awareness<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Experimentation<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">That shift alone can make change feel possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where I Land Now<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I\u2019m still sober and have no desire to drink again. I still believe abstinence is the right path for most people who struggle with alcohol. And I also believe we need earlier, gentler, more honest entry points into change.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">The goal of sobriety\u2014or moderation, or reduction\u2014isn\u2019t the absence of alcohol.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">It\u2019s:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\">Freedom<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Health<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Presence<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">A life that actually works<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">If someone can get there sooner, with less damage along the way, I\u2019m all for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Action Steps<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">If this resonated, here are a few grounded next steps:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\">Ask the question honestly<br><em>Is alcohol adding to my life\u2014or quietly taking from it?<\/em><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Move from judgment to curiosity<br>You don\u2019t need a label to run an experiment.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Plan ahead of cravings<br>Decisions made in advance beat willpower every time.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Seek support early<br>Coaching, tracking, community, and medical tools are preventative\u2014not last resorts.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Protect what already works<br>If abstinence is serving you, honor that. No need to second-guess stability.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Resources<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li class=\"\">Sunnyside:<a href=\"https:\/\/www.sunnyside.co\/\"> <\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.sunnyside.co\/arlina\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" title=\"\">https:\/\/www.sunnyside.co\/arlina<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">Sunnyside Med (Naltrexone access)<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">NIH research on alcohol use disorder and treatment gaps<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"\">AA and abstinence-based recovery programs (for those who already know)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">If you\u2019re listening to this podcast, reading this post, or even asking the question quietly to yourself\u2014you\u2019re already earlier than most.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And earlier matters.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Guest Contact Info: https:\/\/www.sunnyside.co\/arlina<\/p>\n\n\n\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Embed Player\" src=\"https:\/\/play.libsyn.com\/embed\/episode\/id\/40074475\/height\/128\/theme\/modern\/size\/standard\/thumbnail\/yes\/custom-color\/87A93A\/time-start\/00:00:00\/playlist-height\/200\/direction\/backward\/download\/yes\/font-color\/FFFFFF\" height=\"128\" width=\"100%\" scrolling=\"no\" allowfullscreen=\"\" webkitallowfullscreen=\"true\" mozallowfullscreen=\"true\" oallowfullscreen=\"true\" msallowfullscreen=\"true\" style=\"border: none;\"><\/iframe>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>\ud83d\udc4a\ud83c\udffcNeed help applying this information to your own life?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Here are 3 ways to get started:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>\ud83c\udf81Free Guide: 30 Tips for Your First 30 Days &#8211; With a printable PDF checklist<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Grab your copy here: <a href=\"https:\/\/www.soberlifeschool.com\">https:\/\/www.soberlifeschool.com<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>\u260e\ufe0fPrivate Coaching: Make Sobriety Stick<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps:\/\/www.makesobrietystick.com\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Subscribe So You Don\u2019t Miss New Episodes!<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong><em>Listen to the episode on<\/em><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-one-day-at-a-time-recovery-podcast\/id1212504521\"><strong><em> <\/em><\/strong><strong><em>Apple Podcasts<\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong><em>, <\/em><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/4I23r7DBTpT8XwUUwHRNpB\"><strong><em>Spotify<\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong><em>, or Amazon Music, or you can stream it from my website <\/em><\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.odaatchat.com\"><strong><em>HERE<\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong><em>.<\/em><\/strong><strong> <\/strong><strong><em>You can also watch the interview on YouTube.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@theonedayatatimepodcast?sub_confirmation=1\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"295\" height=\"121\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/odaatchat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/image-5.png?fit=295%2C121&amp;ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-6035\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-one-day-at-a-time-recovery-podcast\/id1212504521\"><strong><\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"217\" height=\"76\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/odaatchat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/image-4.png?fit=217%2C76&amp;ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-6034\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/odaatchat.libsyn.com\/spotify\"><strong><\/strong><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/a8eb438c-5af1-493b-99c1-f218e5553aff\/episodes\/64fe74c8-246c-4c89-96bf-257b676d7489\/the-one-day-at-a-time-recovery-podcast-transform-your-career-using-sobriety-principles\"><strong>&nbsp;<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1374\" height=\"334\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/odaatchat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/image-6.png?fit=640%2C156&amp;ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-6037\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/odaatchat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/image-6.png?w=1374&amp;ssl=1 1374w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/odaatchat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/image-6.png?resize=300%2C73&amp;ssl=1 300w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/odaatchat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/image-6.png?resize=1024%2C249&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/odaatchat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/image-6.png?resize=768%2C187&amp;ssl=1 768w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/odaatchat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/image-6.png?w=1280&amp;ssl=1 1280w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 640px) 100vw, 640px\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/a8eb438c-5af1-493b-99c1-f218e5553aff\/the-one-day-at-a-time-recovery-podcast\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"179\" height=\"60\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/odaatchat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/image-7.png?fit=179%2C60&amp;ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-6036\"\/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/@theonedayatatimepodcast\"><strong><\/strong><\/a><strong>&nbsp;<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\"><strong>Apple: <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-one-day-at-a-time-recovery-podcast\/id1212504521\"><strong>https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-one-day-at-a-time-recovery-podcast\/id1212504521<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Spotify: <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/4I23r7DBTpT8XwUUwHRNpB\">https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/4I23r7DBTpT8XwUUwHRNpB<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Amazon Music: <a href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/a8eb438c-5af1-493b-99c1-f218e5553aff\/the-one-day-at-a-time-recovery-podcast\">https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/a8eb438c-5af1-493b-99c1-f218e5553aff\/the-one-day-at-a-time-recovery-podcast<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h1 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Nick<\/strong><\/h1>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">[00:00:00] Nick, thanks so much for joining me today. Yeah, I&#8217;m really excited to be here. We both have the same last name. We are not related. I was gonna say the same thing. Oh, are you? Yeah. Not related to Josh Allen either, although that would&#8217;ve been fun. Listen, I&#8217;m excited I say this in every episode. I&#8217;m excited to talk to you, but I really am because you&#8217;re the CEO of the Sunnyside app.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">You&#8217;re in San Francisco in the Land of startup, and you have some interesting board members. A d Ja, Dr. A d Jaffy was on my podcast a bazillion years ago. I think we chatted about that. And near how do you Yeah. Near, near ael. Yeah. So he, didn&#8217;t he write that book in distractible?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah, that&#8217;s right. And actually that was one of the inspirations of the Sunnyside system was actually, I was reading that book as I was building the initial framework for for what became Sunnyside. So he is deeply influential to our story. Yeah. Yeah. You have some really interesting, really smart people on your board and staff, and so are you and [00:01:00] I like the work that you&#8217;re doing and it&#8217;s so interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So for me as a person in long-term recovery, somebody that practices abstinence, I used to be pretty. I used to walk a hard line, like I don&#8217;t really support people that are practicing moderation. Like I was pretty locked into my mindset. And then I had a series of experiences with clients that helped me to soften my stance or rethink my position.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And it&#8217;s funny &#8217;cause I was always saying, oh, after 31 years of sobriety, the only thing I really know is I don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s right for anyone else. And in all humility, if somebody hasn&#8217;t answered the big question, can I moderate? That is a, that is like the pivotal point of the recovery journey.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And I think of recovery as a process that may include what we would call relapses. It&#8217;s not, and sobriety is. People are [00:02:00] funny about marking time and things like that, but I thought this would be such an interesting conversation for us to explore because it&#8217;s really the foundation of, what path am I in gonna end up on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And tell me a little bit about, you were talking about you were developing the app. What was the inspiration, besides reading the book and all that, what was the inspiration for this? Yeah, definitely. So Sunnyside is, we like to think of Sunnyside as the first step for anyone who&#8217;s looking to change their relationship with alcohol.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And so we really exist to help people start to explore that question of can I moderate and what do I want my relationship with alcohol to look like? We built this system, my co-founder and I around lived experience. I grew up in a household with two parents who are now in recovery from alcoholism.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">They&#8217;ve had great success with aa, they&#8217;ve been sober for more than 30 years, and that had a profoundly positive impact on my life. It also helped me to realize as I was growing up and starting to explore my own relationship with alcohol, that I have some of the same [00:03:00] tendencies that my parents did when it comes to alcohol.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">It, when I&#8217;m not being thoughtful about my relationship, it&#8217;s pretty easy for, drinking to sneak up on me sometimes. Hard to find that off switch. And I started, I realized that pretty quickly with the guidance of my parents that, I can, if I&#8217;m not careful, can fall into some of those same, long-term dependence patterns that they did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">But I wasn&#8217;t ready to accept that my fate was, to spiral into alcoholism and then have to crawl my way, claw my way back up. And rather because I was working, my parents were helping to instill this awareness in me really early. It&#8217;s been front of mind for me for a really long time to be proactive with the role that alcohol plays in my life and intentional about when and how much I consume.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And so I like to think that the path to starting Sunnyside is really, multiple decades of personal experimentation to find a system that worked for me to create sustained change to my own relationship with alcohol. And once I, I found that, and I built something that really was working for myself and for, others around me who I knew had similar drinking patterns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">It felt really [00:04:00] important to bring that to more people. To provide anyone who has that inkling that they want to change their relationship with alcohol, with the tools and the vocabulary to get started early on the path to a healthier relationship with alcohol. To start to explore that question of, can I moderate before, long-term problematic dependence steps in with the mission to prevent the most negative consequences of long-term alcohol overuse.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">By providing a pathway to get started earlier, maybe before you&#8217;re ready to make that choice of of complete sobriety or, or, registering alcohol as a problem in your life. We wanna provide tools that help people get started before some of those most negative consequences can catch hold.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah, I think that&#8217;s really interesting. So I have two boys, 25 and 20, almost 22, and they both drink occasionally and seem to have a healthy relationship with it now. And, we grew, we, we raised our kids in AA, basically. They, they saw people coming [00:05:00] to the house.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">They saw us helping people. They saw us in community. It was a big part of, our lifestyle growing up, and they were really exposed to all that. And I think as a sober person, we teach our, we tried to teach our kids. Emotion management. We practice things in our household very differently than how we were raised.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Because I was telling you before we hit record that I crashed and burned early. I hit bottom so hard. By the time I was 25, I was like, yeah, I have to, I, my relationship with alcohol was so severe and drastic. It was obvious. That. Like I was a severe binge drinker, and I&#8217;m just super lucky.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I never got a DU, I never crashed my car, anything like that. But I had some very severe consequences. And I wonder, as you were growing up, did you hear all the stories about how bad it got for people? I&#8217;m sure your parents involved you in community and stuff like that too. Yeah, they did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I think [00:06:00] that I&#8217;m also absolutely a child of aa and I have the utmost respect for that choice that my parents made and for the program for really helping them find their path forward after, from a pretty dark place ultimately when I was, a younger kid.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">But I really do believe that, the influence of my parents. And the enlightenment that I think that AA helped them to discover about their own habits, the deeper kind of underlying drivers of why they were drinking the way that they were. Like all of that stuff really did come through in the way that they raised me and my sister.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And I think that, one of the things that was really interesting was when I started to explore my own relationship with alcohol. I was pretty young. It was in my teenage years, I grew up in San Francisco. It was a pretty fast paced, early teen experience. There wasn&#8217;t this drop the hammer no, you can&#8217;t do that because we had this experience and therefore, we&#8217;re gonna be extremely strict.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Rather, it was much more let&#8217;s like work together and let&#8217;s share our own experience to help you build that awareness and find the answer yourself. And so it&#8217;s actually pretty funny when, we talk about this question of can I moderate as a starting point or as that entryway [00:07:00] into.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">A healthier journey toward, or a journey towards healthier drinking habits. I think my parents really poached me along the way with that question. Maybe subconsciously but I think, I really do think that they like brought me into that journey of exploration much earlier than maybe I would have been were it not for that influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. And that&#8217;s really helped me I think, to up until this point answer the question, that I&#8217;ve been successful with moderation and kind of intermittent sobriety as I would explain it. But I don&#8217;t think I would&#8217;ve gotten there without that early influence of Hey, be aware of this, because this was the experience that we had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Ultimately. How old were you when you had your first drink? I was probably 13 or 14 years old and it became pretty apparent pretty quickly that I gravitated towards alcohol a lot more than my peers, especially in that age where a lot of folks were still it was a very scary thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And for me it was this is fun. Let&#8217;s do it a lot. And and I think that was true, for much of my teenage years and even early twenties. But I always had that inkling and I was I did work through a lot of my own personal systems of kind of, this is fun [00:08:00] and also dangerous.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And so let&#8217;s think about how to stay proactive and conscious in, in managing the role that alcohol played in my life so that it didn&#8217;t sneak up on me. Yeah. How did your, how soon did your parents realize that you had been experimenting? They were aware pretty early. I, I don&#8217;t have a specific memory of being caught for the first time or anything on the, along those lines.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">But I will say they were definitely aware in my teenage years that, alcohol was in the house that I was consuming that this was happening. And again, I think they, to their credit, took a very, thoughtful approach, I think, to how they approached that subject with me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">&#8217;cause I actually had a lot of peers whose parents were so strict and rigid of no. That actually led to this complete opposite effect of rebellion and of, sneaking around and of doing kind of more dangerous things because, it had to be around the edges. And so I think my parents by being able to have a positive and proactive conversation with me, and not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Kind of slam the door shut or, and not a punitive thing that it really helped me, I think, to build healthy, healthier habits earlier. You can never [00:09:00] really be healthy with drinking, but I think healthier than if it was something that was, felt like a rebellion. Which it did for a lot of people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. It&#8217;s like the preacher&#8217;s kids effect. If you&#8217;re too strict I&#8217;ll never forget that. We sent our kids to a private Christian school. In San Jose and they would come home and tell me. Yeah. Strict parents make sneaky kids green. True for sure. They create sneaky kids and I think when we enforce these unrealistic rules on our kids, &#8217;cause they are going to be exposed to a lot, they are going to be curious and I think the stricter the parent.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">The more alluring like the, it&#8217;s like the forbidden fruit phenomenon. It&#8217;s it&#8217;s almost like when you. Pushing actually creates resistance. So I really appreciate your parents&#8217; approach that they seem like they were more open and compassionate and not punitive. Because I, I feel like if there&#8217;s [00:10:00] such severe punishment attached to experimentation it does close down communication.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And do you feel like their approach allowed you to be pretty open about what you&#8217;re experiencing with. Yeah, definitely. And I think there&#8217;s actually a pretty interesting analogy here in, in how my parents could have managed alcohol in, in, or managed my relationship with alcohol or helped me to manage my relationship with alcohol, I guess I should say.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">There is a school of thought of this all or nothing. Hey, like none, right? You cannot touch this. This is off limits, here are the boundaries and, we&#8217;re gonna be, punish punishment will ensue if you cross this line. And I think what was really helpful in the approach that my parents brought, which was open-minded and, allowed me to explore without being enabling right, allowed me to explore my own relationship was I think I very early on learned the nuance of the gray area between so there&#8217;s this all or nothing. And then there&#8217;s, not thinking about it at all and just like letting it dominate your life. And I think I&#8217;ve existed in that. Middle area of awareness [00:11:00] while, and consciousness around drinking while not being totally all or nothing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So I think it&#8217;s an interesting thing that, my parents&#8217; philosophy there. Yeah, maybe ultimately led to, the building of Sunnyside and kind of a lot of the philosophy that we help others to explore as well. Yeah, I feel like it&#8217;s a more gentle, compassionate approach that recognizes our own human frailties and and part of that, being, understanding that our kids are gonna have a lot of pressures and influences and, we need to be able to make mistakes and learn from our own experiences. I think that&#8217;s all really important. And it&#8217;s so interesting because. The, our, my, it&#8217;s so funny &#8217;cause this is like a I&#8217;m of your parents&#8217; generation and then I have boys that are probably closer to your age and it&#8217;s what we hope for our kids, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Is that those of us who did cross the line into alcoholism that we do teach our kids. Healthier coping skills. So that, because the drinking is just a symptom. So if we&#8217;re [00:12:00] actually giving our kids a healthy coping skills, that it, I guess it stands to reason that they should be able to have a quote unquote normal relationship with alcohol and and that they always know, and I&#8217;m sure you do that if you felt like you ever crossed the line.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Because there is a, the analogy of the cucumber, once it turns into a pickle, there&#8217;s no turning it back into a cucumber. So there are people who really need to practice abstinence. Yes. Definitely. I was definitely one of those people. But it sounds like you&#8217;re still in the cucumber stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And it&#8217;s so interesting because, I always tell people, up until this point, sobriety has not felt complete. Sobriety has not felt like the right fit for me, but I leave that door open, right? There&#8217;s a yet there, potentially. It doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean that, the way that I drink now is the way that I&#8217;ll drink for the rest of my life, but I&#8217;m still very much in that exploring phase and up until this point.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I found a place for alcohol in my life that feels mostly positive and I won&#8217;t say healthy, but at least aligned with my lifestyle [00:13:00] goals. But my parents also, probably had that same experience at some point and eventually found their way to a place where, alcohol was no longer tenable in their lives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And I think one thing that&#8217;s really interesting when I think about my parents&#8217; generation and how alcohol was managed is like. For both my parents and my co-founder&#8217;s parents, change was precipitated by a rock bottom moment, right? By this kind of like long-term spiraling until it was no longer able to be avoided.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And then this kind of path which was made much more difficult to recover and pull themselves out of, pretty deep hole ultimately. My co-founder and I talk a lot. I&#8217;m one of the lucky ones where my parents found their way to a healthier relationship with alcohol. My co-founder Ian, lost his mom when he was 11 to liver failure from alcohol overuse.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And we both have experienced what long-term alcohol dependence and overuse can do to a family. In my case, luckily there was a path towards, a brighter outcome. And in Ian&#8217;s mom&#8217;s case, didn&#8217;t go that way. Yeah. And we connected really [00:14:00] earlier on this idea that if our parents and the many millions of families affected by alcohol had the kind of vocabulary and the tools to get started on the path to a healthier relationship with alcohol before it became a huge problem. Maybe we could have helped drive different outcomes. And our mission with Sunnyside is to help more people take that first step as soon as they have the inkling that they might want to make a change or that they might wanna explore what moderation or sobriety might look like for them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Rather than waiting until, this point of crisis before getting started, which I think has been this, the nature of the landscape un until this point ultimately. Yeah. There, there did, there does seem to be a gap in the market in terms of solutions. It&#8217;s either, nothing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">&#8217;cause people just do whatever they wanna do and there&#8217;s like nothing. Because all that&#8217;s out there is this idea of sobriety and abstinence and stuff like that. And it does. I feel like there&#8217;s a whole group of [00:15:00] people that are being missed. Like why not have sort of a safety net to catch people before they fall into this place of, addiction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. And dependence and, catastrophe really. Yeah. And that&#8217;s so key and really the underlying philosophy of Sunnyside broadly is, we found that for many people when presented with the option of admitting you&#8217;re a problem drinker and going sober or doing nothing, that a huge percentage of the population are actually choosing to do nothing because they&#8217;re not ready or interested in the idea of complete abstinence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And so up until this point, there just has not been a middle ground path. And honestly, many people find their way to Sunnyside. They get started with us. And they ultimately answer the question like, no, I cannot moderate, and therefore kinda continue on a path towards sobriety. But that&#8217;s giving you an awareness much, much earlier than maybe you would&#8217;ve found it if the place you got started was like, oh, shoot, I&#8217;m in trouble.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I need to cut this outta my life completely. So that proactive and preventive approach [00:16:00] fill such an important gap. To activate many more of the millions of people who could benefit from a healthier relationship with alcohol to get started without the labels, without some of the stigma and without necessarily reaching the point of self-awareness that Hey, this is actually a problem for me so much as this is something I&#8217;d like to change.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">To unlock the myriad of health benefits that a healthier relationship that with alcohol, that drinking less or not at all can lead directly to. I think it&#8217;s, listen, I can hear the alarmists, so if people are listening and they&#8217;re freaking out oh, this is enabling, and, this is dangerous because it gives people the the illusion that there, there is control. And what I would say to that, and I&#8217;m gonna ask you what you think about that too. But what I would say to that personally as somebody who is in the abstinence camp, is that if I think about my alcohol use [00:17:00] and I quit pretty early. I was 25 when I came to that conclusion pretty early.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I didn&#8217;t drink. I never drank normally. Like I, I never from out of the gate did not drink normally, never had a healthy relation. I had a lot of trauma, I had a lot of factors, that led me to the place of but I was a creative little soul. And very resilient. And persistent. And I had to shoot every angle, as they say.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">To, can I moderate? Like I had a rock bottom moment. And then I tried for two years to moderate. And that was a painful two years. It really was because I was one of those people who could not, but if I didn&#8217;t answer that question to like the depths of my soul I would not have been able to surrender to this idea of abstinence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And I think that is a critical question for each person to answer. So how do you think of that sort of alarmist, like you&#8217;re enabling people to keep drinking [00:18:00] longer? Yeah. I think one thing that&#8217;s really interesting here is, we are building from a place of the utmost respect for the decision to go completely sober.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And like at no point are we, convincing people that they should not take that step if that&#8217;s ultimately what they want to do. But the simple fact is, there are 28 million people in the. With past year alcohol dependence and only a very small fraction of them who are actually getting any type of help or treatment to change their relationship with alcohol.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And one of the things that we believe ultimately is that, when presented with this binary of go completely sober or do nothing. Is that a lot of people are choosing to do nothing because they&#8217;re not ready for that choice. And so then you&#8217;re leaving millions and millions of people without any support to, to start to explore, to start to ask that question.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And so the only tool that you have available is com. Programs that are driving towards complete abstinence, you&#8217;re missing a huge chunk of the people for whom who would never get started on that pathway. And so I actually believe that we&#8217;re doing. A great good in this overall [00:19:00] landscape by allowing people a softer and more flexible entry point that may lead to the same place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">It may lead to two years of struggle of, Hey, I cannot moderate and therefore I&#8217;m gonna make, now take the next step towards complete sobriety. But if that person wouldn&#8217;t have gotten started for two or five or 10 years and even starting to ask this question, by the time they&#8217;re getting started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">If they&#8217;re in a much darker and more challenging place than getting started early. We know that alcoholism is a degenerative condition, right? The longer that we wait to start, the harder it becomes to claw ourselves out of. And yeah. And so if we can reduce, I think there&#8217;s the NIH points to like a 10 year gap between the onset of alcohol dependence and actually seeking treatment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">If we can eliminate or shrink that gap and provide people with tools and a right welcoming entry point to get started earlier, I think we can a, avoid a lot of the unchecked consequences of alcohol abuse and overuse. [00:20:00] On millions of individuals, on their families and on kind of the, the concentric circles around them who are affected by individuals who are really suffering from long-term unmanaged alcohol dependence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So we&#8217;re not an alternative to sobriety necessarily so much as a starting point and the kind of front door for anyone who&#8217;s looking to start to explore those questions and find the path that works best for them. This idea of people suffering for 10 years. If you think the first thing that came to mind was.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">My kids, right? Like what about the first 10 years? What would happen to your children if you struggled for 10 years? What would their, what would that do to them? The abandonment, insecurity, neglect, how would that impact their lives? That&#8217;s typically, those are typically the things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">That people drink over when they get older, right? [00:21:00] Because these kids have to develop these survival skills that don&#8217;t translate to healthy adult functioning, right? So a 10 year, even if we&#8217;re talking, five to 15, like those are the formative years, are you really gonna expose your kids like the idea that you are allowing people to start the process?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">10 years sooner. You think about what happens during those timeframes is really significant. Yeah. And the analogies are abound in kind of health broadly, right? We&#8217;ve learned to manage basically every other area of our health in a proactive, through a proactive and preventive lens, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">When we look at weight loss, we&#8217;re not waiting until, obesity before. We&#8217;re kinda starting to work on diet and exercise. We&#8217;re doing, preventive measures for heart health and for, longevity and all these different kind of categories, and yet with alcohol the kind of prevailing wisdom has been or the kind of standard approach is wait until it becomes a problem and then start to treat the condition.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And [00:22:00] so I think taking a preventive lens to alcohol health is critically important. And we&#8217;ve got all these great analogies around us to build towards to eventually eradicate alcohol use disorder by helping people manage. Drinking in the same way we&#8217;ve learned to manage diet and exercise and even like mental health and mindfulness as components of a proactive wellness routine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Not this kind of like reactive, hide it away until you can no longer ignore it. Paradigm that we&#8217;ve grown up with and until this point yeah, definitely time for a change. Tell me, what is the Sunnyside approach, how, when someone is like, first starting to question their relationship with alcohol and they come to you, where do you start People.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah, so Sunnyside has two paths. One which is a digital habit change program that&#8217;s supported by coaches and a great community. And the other, which is medication assisted pathway where we pair doctor prescribed medication for managing alcohol cravings called naltrexone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">[00:23:00] With our proven behavior change program to give a holistic set of tools to help people change their relationship with alcohol, to control, the voice of alcohol in their head and to ultimately build towards to basically address both the biochemical and the behavioral aspects of kind of alcohol use.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And so the digital system which has been reviewed and there&#8217;s published studies about sunnyside&#8217;s program. Looking at kind of the efficacy of just the digital program itself consists of a series of evidence-based tools for habit change applied against kinda alcohol specifically.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So a week in the life of a Sunnyside member someone when you sign up, we ask for where you are Today we explore a little bit about your current habits, your ultimate goal, whether that&#8217;s, moderation or complete sobriety. The focus areas that you&#8217;re interested in when it comes to your overall health.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And we use that to build a system and a personalized program for each individual to help them reach their specific goals. [00:24:00] Whether that&#8217;s, a specific number of drinks per week, a specific number of dry days, or ultimately kind of achieving abstinence in kind of a over time, right? Rather than going cold Turkey right off the bat. So from there, once we&#8217;ve gotten that baseline and plan in place, a week in the life, looks like every Sunday our members come together and we have a goal setting process. And so we have our folks reflect on the previous week. Then look forward to the week ahead and create an outline for how they want the week to go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So that&#8217;s setting day by day individual targets of, I&#8217;m gonna, I&#8217;m gonna not drink on these days. I&#8217;m gonna, allow myself to drink on maybe these couple days, but I&#8217;m gonna set the kind of limits for myself and make those decisions in advance so that we&#8217;re not asking you in the moment, Hey, do you wanna drink today?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">But rather you created a, an accountability roadmap for yourself upfront. Then each day from there, we provide text message based nudges to remind you of the intention that you had for yourself. So this is really important, rather than saying Hey, you shouldn&#8217;t drink today. Or the reminder is actually Hey, your intention was to not drink today, so let&#8217;s work together to stay accountable to that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So [00:25:00] never are we pushing our agenda on you, but rather we&#8217;re helping, enforce your own personal accountability with kind of a third party system, system of nudges and reminders. As you&#8217;re tracking and going over the course of the week we&#8217;re showing you progress visualization.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">You&#8217;re helping, showing how your drinking habits changing or impacting other areas of your health and lifestyle. And we&#8217;re also reinforcing that with human support and coaching. And so when you need a little bit of extra nudge, or if you&#8217;re struggling or if you want some encouragement or just to someone to give you a high five or a pat on the back for a successful dry day you can text us and there&#8217;s real humans on the other side of the mess of the text thread who have experienced it before, who have been there, who can respond and provide support and and assistance along the way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Then we&#8217;ve got this amazing community of individuals who are sharing in a daily, journal. We&#8217;ve got this really nice, rich, positive place to go and reflect on what&#8217;s working and what&#8217;s not, to get advice on different strategies to try and how things are going.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And it makes for a [00:26:00] really nice, cohesive whole where you&#8217;ve got this kind of planning and tracking kind of quantitative side of the world. And then you&#8217;ve got a human to human connection component that makes a huge difference. And then for those who are looking for a little bit more of a nudge or who start on the digital program and realize that they need a little bit more help to make a sustained change within Sunnyside, we also have access to doctor prescribed medication for managing alcohol cravings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And so this is a pretty new experience for us. But we are providing access to naltrexone. Which is a medication that&#8217;s been FDA approved for more than 30 years for managing alcohol cravings. It&#8217;s, I did not know it was around that long. It&#8217;s incredible. The awareness is so low and it&#8217;s such a powerful tool in the journey for helping people change their relationship with alcohol.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">It&#8217;s demonstrated to reduce alcohol cravings and ultimately over time to eliminate binge drinking while not requiring complete abstinence. So people can still drink. On Naltrexone, but it helps to quiet that voice and makes it easier to find the off switch for many people who are experimenting with the [00:27:00] medication.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So I think about it a lot as like ozempic for alcohol. Yeah. And but like with much more research backing it, because it&#8217;s been around for, more than 30 years. It&#8217;s so funny &#8217;cause the only thing I had ever known about before was an abuse, which was if you take it, it makes you sick.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And this is not that. Yeah, so specifically naltrexone is so interesting because part of it, the effect is actually drinking on Naltrexone. Helps you to realize that it&#8217;s working right, because it&#8217;s, it basically makes, it doesn&#8217;t make alcohol, it doesn&#8217;t make you violently ill, it doesn&#8217;t, make it completely not something you even wanna touch, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">But it takes away a little bit of that reward. It makes it a little bit less fun. And over time it that helps you to retrain your habit loops where alcohol is the reward. When that reward is a little bit less exciting. Yeah. All of the other kind of pieces of the loop from your, your cues to your triggers, to your responses.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">There&#8217;s an opening to change those ingrained habits. Yeah. And it&#8217;s incredibly powerful to see the combination of medication [00:28:00] with a structured habit change program. Yeah. Allowing people to kinda reach goals that they have been struggling against in some cases for decades. Yeah. It was so interesting. I actually have a couple clients on Naltrexone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Their goal is not to be abstinent. And, which is a new experience for me. I&#8217;ve been coaching for probably five years and, a sponsor and 12 step for over 30. And so my mind was always, let&#8217;s work towards abstinence. If you&#8217;re questioning it it means you gotta quit basically. Like people don&#8217;t like anyway. It&#8217;s a whole thing. But I recognize that. PE people have access to Naltrexone, and I had this, I have this one client who&#8217;s high functioning, he&#8217;s at the top of a very large organization, and it did not seem to me that he had what I would call like I was a binge drinker.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I didn&#8217;t drink every day. But when you talk about the on and off switch. As soon as I had a drink, it was [00:29:00] on. Yeah. Like on. And all I wanted was more, and what I&#8217;m hearing from my clients who are able to use it successfully, it&#8217;s oh I have a business dinner and I&#8217;m gonna go out, I&#8217;m gonna have, I&#8217;m gonna take the Naltrexone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I might have one or two drinks. And they report, I, I&#8217;m like always run the experiment. Come back to me. Let&#8217;s talk about it. And. It is working. I would say it is working for this person that they have over probably the last six months, have not had those evenings where they are. Drinking. So like over, they were calling it over drinking. And then losing time the next day. To productivity and sickness because they had overdone it. They&#8217;re not having problems with their spouse &#8217;cause they over drank and and I would say this person is using it successfully.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And it&#8217;s so interesting that what I&#8217;m hearing over time is that [00:30:00] it&#8217;s becoming less and less. Of a focus. When they go out, alcohol is right. Exactly. And that&#8217;s what&#8217;s so interesting is basically it quiets the voice of alcohol in your head. And so we&#8217;ve had countless members share very similar experiences, which is I had one and I didn&#8217;t want the next one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">They didn&#8217;t want the next one. And this is, what is that like Absolutely. Mind blowing and game changing for people. Yeah. For whom the medication is working is whoa. This was like, I still enjoyed the one it was. I still had fun. I still got that kind of social experience of having the drink and I just didn&#8217;t go and chase the next one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. I enjoyed where I was and that&#8217;s the thing That&#8217;s so interesting. And we really believe at Sunnyside and with the Sunnyside Med program, like the medication alone is not enough. So we&#8217;re not saying just take a pill and you&#8217;re fine and you don&#8217;t have to do anything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. You still gotta do the work to, take that. Biochemical change that the medication is enabling and use it to rewire the habit, the ingrained habits around drinking. But it provides this sense of [00:31:00] agency over alcohol that I think many have struggled to find historically.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I think the entire kind of school of thought around powerlessness to alcohol is not based on nothing. It&#8217;s a very hard thing to control for many of us, myself included. Yet when you bring medication into the fold, then you can actually tackle the biochemical powerlessness, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Like that, that really loud, very often impossible to ignore voice in your head saying, Hey, have the next one, have the next one, have the next one. All of a sudden, like many doors are open in terms of where to go next when it comes to drinking. And so many people use naltrexone to ultimately achieve, extinction in the language of naltrexone, a k, a complete abstinence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Many others are very happy and satisfied with its effects on allowing, any en enabling, sustained moderation. And I&#8217;ll say here too if you&#8217;re well on your way, on a sub, on an abstinence journey and you&#8217;ve found a system that&#8217;s working for you as sobriety, that&#8217;s still the optimal path. I completely believe that is if you&#8217;re there, stay [00:32:00] there and keep going. But for those of us who are not quite there yet, or who have struggled to sustain that kind of lifestyle, it&#8217;s a great option to explore. And with Sunnyside Med, there&#8217;s now a much easier way to get access to this medication that doesn&#8217;t require a face-to-face doctor visit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">It&#8217;s discreet, it&#8217;s delivered to your door. And I think that&#8217;s gonna allow many more people to. Tap into this tool when it makes sense for them. And we&#8217;re so excited to see the early results and really have that be validated that the combination of medication plus our structured approach to habit change is really allowing people to make, game changing progress that has maybe alluded them for years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. And really the goal of sobriety is to live a life that, that you&#8217;re, you have freedoms and that you are thriving and growing and that you&#8217;re healthy and all kinds of things. So it&#8217;s not necessarily the point of sobriety isn&#8217;t to be sober, it&#8217;s to live your life in a positive. Well-intentioned way and, I just wanna throw out a word of caution.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I have [00:33:00] often heard people in long-term recovery start to question, and so I, I don&#8217;t want this to be oh, permission. Hey, you should try it again. And because I really do wanna stress that if you have enough evidence. In your past that you cannot moderate, don&#8217;t use this as an excuse to start drinking again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">That&#8217;s my official warning. But the intention of this conversation is to catch people earlier. And prevent like those low bottoms and. Traumatizing your children with your drinking over a long period of time and things like that. Yeah. Tell me a little, I&#8217;m sorry to interrupt you, but yeah, no, I&#8217;m going to, I&#8217;m weird like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">No problem. I know I&#8217;m gonna get some funny comments. Okay. You mentioned a couple times about vocabulary and tools. Why is that important? Yeah. I think the vocabulary side of things that is, is really interesting and I actually just wrote a blog post about this a couple weeks ago about the language of alcohol treatment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I think in [00:34:00] some ways reinforces the problems that we&#8217;re trying to address with Sunnyside, which is, creating an opening, non-judgmental entry point into exploring one&#8217;s relationship with alcohol. And when we look at the overarching language that kind of surrounds alcohol treatment today, the language is just very.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Kind of binary and ultimately alienating is what we have found, right? And so when you look at words like addiction, there&#8217;s a clear othering that&#8217;s happening there, right? For someone to be addicted to alcohol, it, that word just brings so much weight of, their life must be outta control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">They must be spiraling, it brings drug addiction. All these types of really heavy and scary. Associations. Moral, character flaws, moral character, right? That this is something that, yeah, shame you have failed. There&#8217;s a lot of shame. There&#8217;s a lot of like incentive to hide it away because it is so heavy and stigmatized.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah, and that does a real disservice because what that means is that people end up waiting and delaying until they can&#8217;t avoid admitting to themselves that I have an addiction. Like [00:35:00] oof woo, this big, heavy kind of hammer drop, right? And so we avoid the word, that word completely within the Sunnyside experience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">We talk about alcohol overuse. We talk about early, dependence and and that can be psychological or physical. But we really wanna avoid these labels that, that create an otherness and that create like a, I&#8217;m not one of those and therefore I don&#8217;t need to do anything because I&#8217;m not, I don&#8217;t have that severity of symptoms.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And so we really think a lot about this idea of like, how do we create inclusive language that is inviting and that makes. The journey towards a healthier relationship with alcohol, joyful and fun and celebratory and not sober, or, and and I think that&#8217;s another, word which is so interesting here is sober as the outcome is it&#8217;s serious and stern and and it doesn&#8217;t have to be like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And yeah, so even thinking, so you got words like addiction, you&#8217;ve got recovery, which suggests that you&#8217;re coming from a broken place. Towards the light and then the [00:36:00] end goal being sober, which is this kind of stern and serious all of it just suggests a more somber and clinical approach than I think is warranted.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">If you really want to create a, a front door for. Millions of people who could really benefit from changing their relationship with alcohol. So Sunnyside, if you, when you look at our branding and when you look at all the pieces, it&#8217;s this bright orange, it&#8217;s this kind of like welcome, smiling face. Our coaches are incredibly warm and welcoming and loving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Our community is really seeped and baked and kind of positivity. Not that this journey is always positive, not that there&#8217;s not gonna be, dark places along the way, but I just think that by creating a. A brighter and more welcoming entry point. We have the opportunity to, again, reduce that gap from onset of dependence to actually getting care and to help people take that first step much, much earlier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. And in a more positive light than where most people get started today. So the vocabulary is so important [00:37:00] and I think when we are stuck in a language of all or nothing, binary outcomes and kind of addiction. That those words are really important and they matter for the population of people who are ready to self-identify Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Into that world. But they have the exact opposite effect for many others. And we wanna create an alternative way to get started that doesn&#8217;t require all the labels. And then I think when I think about tools, right? To answer the second part of your question, like there is a modern pharmacological plus behavioral toolkit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">That not ne nearly enough people know about when it come for managing one&#8217;s relationship with alcohol. So Naltrexone is this incredible, deeply researched medication for alcohol craving management that&#8217;s historically only prescribed at the very end of someone&#8217;s journey with alcohol.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And if Sunnyside Med makes it available proactively, it makes it available earlier and makes it really easy to get started with, medication. Coupled with behavior change. And that&#8217;s so important is that both things [00:38:00] are as important as one another. Yeah. And then the other side is like tools that support moderation or abstinence, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">So trackers, goal setting systems, ability to access coaches and humans on demand, when you maybe don&#8217;t have that person in your life that you can text and go and ask for help. All of these pieces make it much easier to not only make that initial change, which for many people like. Taking the first step towards moderation is easy, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Towards, for a couple weeks or a couple months. It&#8217;s, you can sustain on willpower alone. But with the tools of medication and a structured approach to behavior change, we help people to take willpower out of the equation and ultimately make changing their relationship automatic and routine rather than, deter dependent on how, energized or motivated you are on that specific day to stick to your guns, if you will.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. Yeah. I kind of giggle when you talk about willpower and discipline and stuff like that, because those are, for a lot of people they just, willpower is a finite resource. Like you have more in the morning as you. And [00:39:00] I just talked to somebody the other day that talked about poly crisis.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Meaning there, like there are so many things going on in the world. There&#8217;s so much coming at us from all levels. It&#8217;s it feels like a, the world&#8217;s like a dumpster fire sometimes. Yeah, it&#8217;s a lot. Yeah, it&#8217;s a lot. And so we really do need different kinds of support and we&#8217;re trying to rely on something like willpower like that gets used up very early in the day.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. Yeah. For some people. Yeah. Yeah. And that&#8217;s why kind of the goal setting tool that I explained before we try to have you set your entire intention for the week, all it at once when willpower&#8217;s high at the start of a week. Rather than making the decision on Friday after a long, hard week of work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Am I gonna drink tonight? Yes. No, you&#8217;ve already made that decision and we can, we&#8217;re there to help, keep you accountable to, Sunday version of you. Yeah. When you had higher willpower than maybe Friday at the end of a hard work day. And so I do think that matters a lot, is we channel the moments of high willpower and then help you stay on top of it [00:40:00] when willpower is likely waning in those kind of evening and weekend moments as well. Yeah they, we always talk about the, like the witching hour, like 5, 5, 6 o&#8217;clock. Uhhuh and then, and Fridays for a lot of people where it&#8217;s like it was a rough week and people get a case of the fuck its, and all beds are off. Fuck it Friday. It&#8217;s yeah. And that&#8217;s what&#8217;s so cool about the medication too, is it&#8217;s actually it&#8217;s most effective when taken, two hours before that first craving hits. And so we actually build a new routine a daily routine around taking the medication.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">A couple hours before that first craving. And that&#8217;s been shown, that where then when the craving hits, like you&#8217;ve got naltrexone in your system and, it makes it much easier to quiet that voice that gets louder and louder as the Yeah, the witching hour approaches.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And so we, we really have built the tools to set you up for success with, the daily medication as well as, reminders and, notifications about when to take the meds to best align with your habits and all those kinds of things, which. Really make a big difference for folks.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Is it so I&#8217;ve heard some mostly good things about naltrexone and it [00:41:00] doesn&#8217;t actually work for some people. It&#8217;s it&#8217;s not a panacea, it doesn&#8217;t work for everybody. Is that why you have like systems and tools and personal support and all those, that makes a lot of sense. What do you do with the people that you recognize, like they may not know that they have trauma?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">But is there kind of checks and balances along the way where either the coaches or the human support people clue into, oh, this person has unresolved trauma and that&#8217;s why they can&#8217;t quit? What is your protocol for that? Yeah, so it&#8217;s a nuanced question. There, there are a lot of layers to that triaging ultimately.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Our first line is to support people where they are. And so it&#8217;s not our job to necessarily tell you that you know this, that you know this isn&#8217;t working for you and you need to go try something else. But we do support folks in kind of the self-awareness and discovery process of finding that answer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And so we do a lot of questioning and asking our members to explore how they&#8217;re feeling so that they [00:42:00] can find their way to the realization like, Hey, maybe moderation is not working for me. Or, hey, maybe there&#8217;s actually some underlying issue that I. Could benefit from addressing that is driving me towards alcohol as a, self-medication if you will.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. And so we do have a number of protocols for more kinda like crisis driven experiences that members are having, but I think there&#8217;s really this kind of Socratic method in our coaching of helping folks to come to their own realization, find answers themselves. Because I think there&#8217;s nothing worth when someone is like not ready to hear something like that, that like we&#8217;d rather have you. Work with us then quit and, say fuck it and just go off the deep end. Disappear. Yeah. And so there&#8217;s, it is a really fine balance, but I think our coaching team, we are trained on, handling these types of experiences, do a really nice job of delivering empathy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. While also being firm when that&#8217;s what the patient needs to help. Guide them in the direction of their goals. Yeah. The have you considered. Yeah, exactly. Have you considered maybe [00:43:00] therapy? We might need an to add an additional tool. Yeah. And the talk therapy side of things is really interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">That&#8217;s a place that we&#8217;re spending a lot of time thinking about also is how do we help to address those underlying. Traumas or comorbidities that often drive people in that direction. And so nothing there yet, but there&#8217;s a lot of thinking happening on our side in that respect as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah, no, it&#8217;s good to be able to like, refer out once you recognize what&#8217;s really going on. And so it&#8217;s good to hear that you&#8217;re staying in your lane and you&#8217;re addressing a certain type of person in the market and you know that there&#8217;s some awareness of the comorbidities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">A lot of people. With alcoholism, like full blown are dealing with anxiety, depression, bipolar all these trauma, there&#8217;s a lot of that in the severe. So it&#8217;s good that that your coaches are informed and know how to deal with that. This has been super helpful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">I think pe there are gonna be a lot of people who are gonna be really curious. About [00:44:00] tools like Naltrexone. And in my own personal coaching I used to just deal with people that are wanting to practice abstinence. But in all humility I understand that people need to answer the question, can I moderate?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And if they do come to the conclusion that they don&#8217;t, and I am in that place where I. Now am now open to helping people answer that question before committing to abstinence. This sounds like such a such a gentle. Lighthearted. I don&#8217;t know if lighthearted is the right word, but, you have, think about big hearted, we&#8217;re serious and empathetic when we need to be, but it&#8217;s with a welcoming, and welcom open arms, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah. Just Hey, no shame. Come check it out. Explore, do privately, a lot of people wanna do this privately. They, there&#8217;s a very, a big need for yeah. Privacy in a lot of this. That&#8217;s really important. Is there anything else that I should have asked you that we haven&#8217;t quite [00:45:00] addressed yet?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Or do you feel like this is complete? Was there anything missing? No, I think we did a pretty good job. I, what I love to, to leave audiences with is as soon as you have that inkling that you want to take the first step. Take the first step, right? Yeah. I think that&#8217;s the most important part.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And if you&#8217;re listening to this podcast, you&#8217;re already ahead of the game in terms of starting that exploration. For those of you who are, in the early part of your journeys and figuring out what that really looks like, we are here to support. That first step and the next step and the next step, we&#8217;re here to help build small habits that ladder up into, really big changes and really to help you explore and answer that question for yourself of, can I moderate and what do I, what does my relationship with alcohol need to look like?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">We&#8217;re here to provide the tools from, digital, self-guided programming all the way through to doctor prescribed medication with human support and empathy, interwoven along the way. And it&#8217;s been really effective for hundreds of thousands of people who have gone through the Sunnyside program.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">And we would love [00:46:00] to, work with anyone who&#8217;s interested in checking us out and, taking that first step. That&#8217;s what we&#8217;re, that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re here for. That&#8217;s beautiful. Listen you&#8217;re doing amazing work in addressing a market I think that has been largely neglected for a very long time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Good job, Nick. Good job. Thanks so much. I really appreciate being on the show. And for anyone who&#8217;s interested in checking us out you can find us@sunnyside.co and you&#8217;ll see an entry point for the digital program and also Sunnyside Med from there. Looking forward to. Working with anyone in the audience is interested.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">Yeah, I&#8217;ll absolutely leave links in the show notes too. I&#8217;ll leave a summary and links to resources and action items in the show notes@tchat.com. But it was great spending some time with yeah, with you Nick, my long lost family member. That&#8217;s right. Likewise, long lost cousins.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"\">It&#8217;s great to be on. Talk you soon. Have a great day.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Answering This Question Matters More Than You Might Realize For most of my recovery journey, I held a pretty firm belief: If you\u2019re questioning<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":6038,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"nf_dc_page":"","_exactmetrics_skip_tracking":false,"_exactmetrics_sitenote_active":false,"_exactmetrics_sitenote_note":"","_exactmetrics_sitenote_category":0,"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-6033","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"aioseo_notices":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/odaatchat.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/nick_headshot_2025.png?fit=280%2C280&ssl=1","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p9npAr-1zj","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6033","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=6033"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6033\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":6045,"href":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6033\/revisions\/6045"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/6038"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=6033"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=6033"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/odaatchat.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=6033"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}